Podcast

[00:00:00] Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, the podcast where we dive into the ideas, innovations, and imagination, shaping the world of designed experiences. From museums to multimedia, from architecture to ai, we explore how creativity transforms space into story. If you’re joining us for the first time, we’re so glad you’re here. And to our regular listeners, thank you for coming back and being part of the conversation. If you enjoy what you hear, please take a moment to rate the show and share it with a friend. It helps curious minds find us. Now, I’d like to introduce myself. I’m Abigail Honor.

[00:00:41] Brenda: Hello, this is Brenda Cowan.

[00:00:43] Abby: Today’s episode is one I’ve really been looking forward to.

We are joined by Steven Rosen, founder of the Lighting design firm, Available Light, a name you may already know if you’ve followed work that fuses design with purpose. Steven’s career has been shaped by a dual passion. Working with clients around the globe who believe design and specifically lighting design could truly change the world and mentoring the next generation of designers through his leadership in SEGD’s new professional practices group.

He’s someone who doesn’t just practice lighting design, he elevates it. A recipient of the Edison Report’s Lifetime Achievement Award and a fellow of the International Association of Lighting Designers. Stephen brings both depth of experience and a deep sense of responsibility to the future of the field.

Welcome to the show, Steven.

[00:01:42] Brenda: Welcome, Steven.

[00:01:43] Steven: Well, thank you both. You are two of my heroes, so thank you, Randy.

[00:01:46] Brenda: Oh my gosh.

And we are just so happy to have you joining us. Steven, you’ve also been a wonderful member of my department’s lighting design faculty. Yes. For many years. And so it’s nice to be able to talk with you about your expertise in the field.

So let’s, let’s talk about lighting design. It sets mood. It creates awe. It’s directional, it’s emotional. It can tell the whole story. How did you begin your work with lighting design?

[00:02:15] Steven: Well, it started a long time ago, back in high school. Uh, like many lighting designers, like many, many of my colleagues who do experiential environments in architecture, we got our start in theater.

And I discovered this in high school, and most of my friends and colleagues, some of who are still very dear friends today, most of them grew up and went on to do, uh, real jobs. Uh, but I couldn’t get enough of it. And so I went through my college career studying theatrical lighting design, an undergraduate school.

I have an MFA from NYU, the Tisch School of the Arts. Uh, and somewhere along the line, I, I crossed over. I made this discovery of permanent installation, whether that be museum, exhibition or environments or architecture. And so while I was pursuing my career as a theatrical lighting designer in a industrials, corporate events, special events kind of lighting, some of which we still do today, I found a new path.

And so I’m here today as part of Available Light, but I started out as, uh, doing touring theater.

[00:03:20] Abby: You know what’s really interesting sort of lighting design, sort of in parallel to your story, Steven. Lighting design’s always been central to how I I approach storytelling. You know, mine started with a background in film and cinema lighting, like theatrical lighting.

It’s not just functional. It sort of carries emotional weight. It sets the tone and it guides also the viewer’s focus, especially as we start to think about 3D spaces or visitors moving through, through spaces. So how has lighting design changed, uh, over the 30 plus years you’ve been working in it, and what makes it such a powerful medium for you?

[00:03:56] Steven: Well, there’s an old axiom among lighting designers that lighting designers can make a very cool project, even cooler. Uh, but lighting designers struggle to make a badly ill conceived project better. So let me first start by saying. We are storyteller, enablers. Uh, I, my clients, uh, are storytellers. They come up with original ideas.

They come up with original ways to present them. I don’t necessarily have that big brain skill. Uh, I’m not someone who can look at a blank piece of paper and create something magical. What I’m very good at and what my team at Available Light is really good at is supporting that, how that story is told, and creating those moments, those crossroads, those, uh, tributaries leading people in places that maybe our clients didn’t necessarily think of until we were in the room.

[00:04:48] Brenda: Stephen, give us an example of, you know, a transformational experience where lighting really, really changed things in a significant way, in a really powerful way.

[00:05:01] Steven: Many years ago I was involved with a project called the National Infantry Museum. It’s in, uh, Fort Benning, Georgia. And so you walk into this museum and there was a hundred foot long ramp.

Uh, from the beginning of the ramp all the way up into the first gallery, and it was a slight uphill incline. And as you walk through this traversing pathway, which has followed a story, each diorama that you came on was a history of the infantry, starting with a revolutionary war and ending with some mideast conflict.

So there was lighting everywhere. Uh, lighting built into the scenery, lighting, uh, mounted above and around the scenery. It was all an orchestrated theatrical lighting system. Every fixture had its own control. You know, we often talk about how every light is a paintbrush if you use it properly, and so all of these things kind of came together on the ramp, and it was the synchronization of sound, both voices and effects, and video projection and lighting that, uh, created this theatrical event that as you, as you walked through it, it was, it was really an immersive environment. You had no idea where you were until you got to the end of the ramp. So the lighting was orchestrated much like you would see in a, say in a Broadway play.

[00:06:13] Brenda: What comes to mind when you talk about the sublime in lighting design?

[00:06:19] Steven: It really depends on whether the lighting is meant to evoke something far bigger than just making sure you can get from one place to another in an interesting way, or whether it is a very simple, simple lighting task, but you create a sense of experience. It transcends just the task that your client is asking you to achieve.

[00:06:41] Brenda: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:41] Steven: And that, and that comes from hours and hours of discussion with clients and cajoling them to think about things in ways that maybe they haven’t thought about them before. Uh, but it, it’s, it is that feeling of completion with lighting. It that it’s that there’s no rough edges. It, it can be from an incredibly complicated involved production to just walking through a, uh, the National Archives in Washington dc.

[00:07:07] Abby: I’d like to build on, on that idea of the relationship. With the client and, and think about it, when, when it, in terms of engaging the idea of the absence of light, which can be just as powerful as the presence, especially in narrative spaces, have you ha ever had to fight for darkness with a client?

[00:07:25] Steven: I love where you’re headed with this, Abigail, because the whole idea is to reveal things from darkness, lighting, carves, things out of darkness.

[00:07:33] Brenda: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:07:34] Steven: And one of the things that I, when I talk to my students especially, is one of the wonderful things that theatrical lighting can do is it can, it can completely divorce you from the space you are in. If you have a black box and there’s no light in the corners and we don’t put any light in the corners, your audience doesn’t know where the corners are.

They don’t understand that if you’re on the dark ride in Cinderella, in Disneyland, you can only see what the design team wants you to see, and you and everything else just goes away. You don’t all of a sudden go, oh, there’s a, the cobweb over there in the corner, the corners are, are left dark. So you really have no definition of where you are and, and we, and if that works, then the design team has you. We’ve got you.

[00:08:16] Abby: So I just wanna share a brief story that popped in my head when you were talking about the idea of darkness concealing a room. I actually got stuck in, in the space mountain ride, and, uh, they had.

[00:08:29] Steven: Oh no.

[00:08:29] Brenda: This is the therapy session.

[00:08:32] Steven: Did you, did you ever get out?

[00:08:36] Abby: Thankfully, relatively quickly, but not without them having to turn all the lights on.

[00:08:41] Steven: Oh my God.

[00:08:41] Brenda: Oh,

[00:08:42] Abby: And so it was really exactly how you explained Stephen completely anticlimactic because you can see the whole rollercoaster, everything holding it up. It becomes absolutely unemotional and quite dreadful as you’re part of this mechanism.

Um, so we actually did Space Mountain in the Light, which was compared to Space Mountain. We did after that in the Dark, ’cause we wrote it again, two completely different experiences, but it was just, as you were telling me that story, I was like, yes, it’s,

[00:09:09] Steven: yeah,

[00:09:10] Abby: The absence of light and not knowing because you also fill things in. Um,

[00:09:14] Steven: Absolutely.

[00:09:15] Abby: And elaborate and embellish

[00:09:16] Steven: Absolutely.

[00:09:17] Abby: The darkness with your mind. Right? So in a way, a visitor is also then participating in, in that story, which I find, um, really fantastic.

[00:09:26] Steven: Right? You don’t want to see someone’s underwear, you just wanna see the full dress, right?

[00:09:31] Abby: Totally. Do you,

[00:09:33] Brenda: Well, I appreciate how sculptural this is.

And do you ever think of yourself as a sculptor? ’cause you sound like one.

I definitely think of myself as a sculptor of light. Uh, and, you know, you can take a, if you were to take a, a, a classic sculpture and just put it in a dark room and spend the next three days with a team of designers figuring out the best way to light it, you would probably come up with 200 great ways to light it.

Uh, and, and, um. You know, for, for lighting designers, it’s all about sidelight and backlight, which does not allow you to read a graphic. It doesn’t allow you to see a face, but you start with the sculpting qualities of light, and then you add the, the critical front light exactly where you need it and only as much as you need it.

It’s what grabs your attention. You don’t know that it’s happening, but it, it’s what’s it is what’s happening.

[00:10:25] Abby: Well, I guess the next question, the technology is quickly becoming a collaborator in our design process. You know, AI in particular

[00:10:33] Steven: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:34] Abby: Recently is starting to make its, I’ll say, presence felt across our, our creative industries, all the way from concept generation to simulation.

How do you see AI enhancing the creative process in lighting design and can it inspire or even, or even co-design with us?

[00:10:51] Steven: I personally haven’t had that kind of experience yet. Uh, however I certainly see it coming. AI is already in use in the lighting technology world in terms of keeping track of paperwork, keeping track of specifications.

So, you know, that’s really where the entree, and I think that’s probably true in any field. The entree is kind of in the, the nuts and bolts of the behind the scenes kind of work, not so much the artistic creation. I, I think what’s more important to us, rather than using AI for creative endeavor, is responding to what our clients bring to us.

The ones who are the ones who are actually filling the story and saying, here’s this world we’ve created, whether it’s a retail store or a hotel room, or a museum exhibit, or a dark ride. This is the feeling we’re trying to evoke, and maybe they’ve used AI to create that, and now it’s our job to then kind of deconstruct that image.

We do that now, as you know, as in real life. I imagine that someday we’ll use AI to, say, create a lighting plan around this image, you know, and make it feel like the sun’s coming from stage right and setting stage left and something like that.

[00:12:01] Brenda: Do you have a preference? Meaning like, um, if a client comes to you with a sort of elaborate AI generated or, you know, I image and mood and I want it to feel like this, I want it to look like this and Okay, make it happen.

Or do you prefer a little bit more of somebody showing up to you with some thumbnail sketches on a cocktail napkin and a passion?

[00:12:27] Steven: Oh, that’s a fabulous question, and you already know my answer. I mean, it’s, it’s difficult for me to fill in the blanks. It’s difficult for me to, uh, to externalize my own creativity if you’ve given me the finished image.

Whereas if you give me the sketch, uh, my brain starts to whirl and my colleagues’ brain start to whirl like, oh, well we could do this or we could do this. If you don’t give me all the options in your presentation, it allows me some leeway to add my own stank to it, you know? You know what I’m saying?

[00:12:57] Brenda: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:57] Steven: It’s really, that’s, it’s so much more helpful. It gets the conversation going, and it also will engage our clients in ways that, you know, here’s the, here’s the run and go make it happen.

[00:13:07] Brenda: So Steven, um, another question that we had still in the AI world here is, um, if you could speak to, if you know, you know, how AI currently is being used to do things like, you know, optimize lighting systems or, you know, related to energy usage or daylight integration maintenance.

Um, are you familiar with or are you using AI in any of those particular kinds of applications?

[00:13:33] Steven: One of the things that we’re doing more and more is when we do, uh, a particularly complicated or complex project, we are almost always now, um, hooking our control systems up to the internet so that if there’s an issue, something goes wrong or just on a regular maintenance basis, may, uh, schedule, like you said, uh uh, the system will send reminders to everyone.

That’s incredibly, incredibly helpful to have somebody looking out. Somebody in quotes.

[00:14:06] Brenda: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:14:07] Steven: Uh, looking out for the system to make sure it’s operating properly. Uh, in terms of daylight integration and energy management and daylight harvesting. Uh, the, the control systems that are being developed are amazingly complex.

In the old days, you might have had like one sensor in the room and if somebody walks in, the lights would turn on. But now you have really, um granular kinds of sensing where you have lights that are near to windows, sensing daylight, and you have, uh, sensors that are further into the room, uh, and they, and there’s this, and there’s this mesh network so that these sensors are all speaking to each other and making, the system itself is making decisions about how much electric lights should be created for this space.

So. I think that AI is clearly finding its way into all these things, but your, your questions or the, the, the, where you’re headed with this, Brenda, I think it’s just a little bit premature for the lighting industry.

[00:15:00] Brenda: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:01] Steven: But it’s all out there. I mean, you, you know, you, if you asked me this question in a year, I could probably point to three projects that we’ve done that had that, that had AI in the, in the in, in the creation of it.

[00:15:11] Brenda: Steven, are there specific trends that you’re really excited about or things that you’re just totally tired of?

[00:15:20] Steven: Um, I think the trends that I’m excited about is the fact that more and more, uh, the design world, whether they’re architects or exhibit designers or experienced designers, more and more this group of people is embracing lighting and they’re embracing the fact that they don’t have the necessary, uh, skillset to perform the, the, the work. They certainly have the vision. I mean, the, many of my, my designers, you know, they’re innately lighting designers. They understand how light, you know, carves from darkness, like I said earlier. But in terms of having another voice in the room who can guide that conversation and allow things to actually be realized as opposed to, you know, failure and things don’t work when you, where you expect them to. There’s a much more appreciation for just the, the occupation of lighting design, and it’s because everyone from owners to designers have come to appreciate what lighting can do and how it can really change a space and, and how it can be dynamic.

I think that’s another thing is dynamic spaces is also, uh, has really changed, uh, the game for lighting designers. All of us now know what color temperature is. You know, we know that daylight is cooler than incandescent, and that LED can be a this entire range. And so if you can have a space that responds to time, so that in the morning a space is one sense of, let’s call it white light, but a, a shade of white light. Sort of like beige, right? What color is beige? Um. And then over the arc of the day, you know the color, temperature, and maybe even the directionality of the light changes. These make for spaces that these are energy charged spaces. They help the people who are using the space feel more involved and integrated and with each other because the space is as alive as they are.

[00:17:14] Abby: Often when we’re concepting, we don’t unfortunately have a lighting designer involved at the, our early stages for us. So we’ll come up with our lovely little concepts. They’re all, let’s say, lit the way we like them. They look beautiful for the story they’re telling. When do you normally get involved and how are you prototyping or communicating your lighting to a client at these early stages?

[00:17:37] Steven: When do we get involved is typically who, with our clients who really understand what we do is sometimes it’s as early as concept, but more often it is that schematic design. So there’s a sense of what you’re gonna do, and now you start to bring your collaborators in, you know, you’re not all grappling in the dark together.

Um, so schematic design is a good place for us to join in and, and in fact, when we have a budget challenge client who wants to use a lighting designer. It’s difficult for them to find the money and I, I try as much as I can to convince our clients. I try to turn the table on them and say, you know, it’s more important that you have us on when you’re still learning this about this place yourself.

We can help set you on the road. And then if somebody else, like the electrical engineer or the contractor or you yourselves, have to kind of hustle it through to completion, that may be a better use of our time. Now, it would depend on the kind of project it is, of course, but I would much rather help a client get on the right path and, and jump off early than come in late and when it’s too late.

And I always, and I also tell my clients, even if you were to bring us on in construction document phase, we still have to do sd. We still have to do dd, right? Whether, whether it’s officially with you or not, how do we get to CD without doing those other phases? You know, there has to be ideation, there has to be conception, there has to be some assemblage of ideas and thoughts and hardware.

[00:19:04] Brenda: I wanna make sure that we have time and during a pivot into talking about PPG. So the SEGD has the Museum Exhibition Professional Practice Group. Its mission is to explore new frontiers in museum exhibition design, curation, experiences, enhanced visitor engagement. And this is a group that Steven, uh, is one of the founders of.

Thank you so much, Steven. And the overall intention is to be able to really promote active participation within the exhibits community in a variety of different ways. And the group was formed partly in response to the loss of the museum exhibitions focused group that was run via the American Alliance of Museums.

And it was a big loss when that particular group was suddenly dropped, but you and George Mayer swooped in to save the day and you initiated this forum. So my question for you is, why, why is it important to create this professional venue for the museum community?

[00:20:14] Steven: So we had, uh, a meeting, a gathering place, uh, at name the National Association Museum Exhibition.

Um, that was part of AAM and it just was a way to keep the, the community together and to keep it moving forward and to inspire and challenge one another about how to make our world better. So. I saw the loss of that and I thought, that’s untenable. And so I got on the phone with George and I said, well, it’s, it’s now or never, you know, we’ve been talking about how do we make this better?

Well, let’s try to do that. So we reached out to SEGD and Cybelle, who’s a, a very dear friend and a client for decades. Uh, and, um. We started to make our pitch and we got about 30 seconds into the pitch and she said, I’m in. And so we started and we then engaged, uh, Shraddha Aryal, who’s the vice president of exhibits at the Academy Awards Museum to be our third co-chair.

The three of us took this on and that’s how we got our start.

[00:21:11] Abby: Sort of break down the ways that the members can participate. What are they doing within the group?

[00:21:16] Steven: So we have developed, uh, through a bunch of focus groups. Uh, we developed, uh, six committees and we didn’t really want this to be a top-down organization.

And so once we had figured out what these committees would be based on the feedback we got, we immediately found people who would lead those committees. And we found people who’d be interested in joining them. And then we tasked each committee with coming up with their own statement of purpose, which we, which we have and we have created, it’s on our website, and each of these committees is working very hard to create, uh, content programming. We then are gonna be reaching out and creating regional coordinators. The SEGD already has a, a, a robust, uh, regional representation, and there are a lot of regional activities and events that go on. We’re gonna try to piggyback on that and bring the museum exhibition part of SEGD into those, into those gatherings.

And we, of course we put on, uh, one of the things that NAME was best known for was producing a party at AAM. And as silly as that sounds, it was like the high point of many of the people in our industry. And so we resurrected that party this year and we had, um, 400 people come to our, come to our party.

[00:22:28] Brenda: Fantastic.

You know, something that’s just ever present on my mind. This is a passionate body of people, right?

[00:22:37] Steven: Yes.

[00:22:37] Brenda: Who do indeed just live and breathe this work and when we’re taking a look at the world today, we’re looking at museum heritage, cultural arts, fields being attacked.

[00:22:48] Steven: Yeah.

[00:22:48] Brenda: Certainly in the US and you know, if ever there was a pressing moment to unify as a community, it’s right now.

And I’m curious if you could share any kind of topics that are emerging in group discussions that are in response to the state of things. Like, uh, do you see the PPG as being a very action oriented membership? Um, what, what’s been emerging?

[00:23:19] Steven: Well, when I’ve sat in on meetings that that conversation is, is alive in every committee meeting, it comes up in every meeting.

And I think that there is still some fomenting of ideas going on, but I suspect, yes, I think, uh, I suspect as a response to the cutting of funding and the cutting of respect and the redefinition of what is truth. I think all of those things are gonna be part of what’s happening and will be subject matter in our PPG, both, both to a greater sense of awareness within our group, but then also how do we share our concerns outward.

You know, those having a group and an association to embody some of these ideas in a bigger form, a group of people has a bigger voice than a single person. Um. Mostly, not necessarily, not always. Uh, I think you will be seeing that more and more because those conversations are coming to a fruition in the committees.

[00:24:12] Brenda: Excellent. And I cannot tell you how grateful, uh, I am, uh, for your work to create this forum and to enable that and foster these kinds of dialogues. Particularly now, you know, your timing could not be more important.

[00:24:31] Steven: Yeah, we certainly didn’t mean for it to be happening when this was happening, but here we are.

So…

[00:24:35] Brenda: here we are.

[00:24:36] Steven: Try to be part of the solution.

[00:24:38] Abby: So Steven, today, one of the things that you said, which really struck a chord, which obviously something you’re familiar with, but it was the every light is a paintbrush metaphor is just, absolutely gorgeous, and I’m gonna definitely carry that away with me as I, as I look and assess lighting and other people’s work in my own work.

It’s just absolutely, um, delightful. So thank you, Stephen, for joining us, and thanks to everyone who tuned in, and we hope you’ll subscribe to Bats of Experience wherever you get podcasts. Leave a review, share with a friend. Join us next time as we continue to explore what brings spaces to life. So thank you everyone, and thank you, Steven.

[00:25:16] Brenda: Thank you so much, Steven.

[00:25:18] Steven: It’s my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

[00:25:23] Audio Engineer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lauren Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hanger Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

[00:00:00] Abigail Honor: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast that explores the creativity, innovation, and psychology driving design and immersive experiences. If you’re new, welcome to the show and to our regular listeners, thanks for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name is Abby Honor.

[00:00:22] Brenda Cowan: Hello, this is Brenda Cowan.

[00:00:23] Abigail Honor: Today we’re talking with Micah Parzen, who is the CEO of the Museum of Us in San Diego, where he focuses on developing better practices in what an anti-racist, anti-colonial museum can look like. And then he shares those practices and lessons learned in ways that create a positive ripple effect in the museum field and beyond.

Whether it’s through his writing or speaking engagements and various board duties, Micah is also an anthropologist and an attorney, and it is a pleasure to have you on our show today.

[00:00:59] Micah Parzen: Thank you so much, Abby. I’m really happy to be here with both of you.

[00:01:03] Brenda Cowan: We are so excited to have you and you are indeed this sort of Renaissance person.

Um. How did you find yourself working in museums and, and then in a leadership role at the Museum of Us?

[00:01:18] Micah Parzen: I fell in love with anthropology as an undergraduate and um, it just opened my world to really a philosophical orientation to the world that resonated so deeply with me from a values-based perspective.

Went down that path and ultimately got a PhD in anthropology and got very disillusioned with academia. And had had some experiences, uh, right after undergraduate, um, that, um, exposed me to the law as a form of what I would call activist anthropology. And I decided to go to law school to proliferate my options and, um, having no idea where it would lead.

I ended up practicing, um, employment law at a very large firm in San Diego for about seven or eight years, and I, I made partner there. I was chair of the pro bono, um, program. And, um, I served on a lot of boards and, um, I realized one day, particularly after making partner, that that was sort of the work that was getting me up in the morning, um, really serving the community in different ways.

And, um, I had been recruited by the then San Diego Museum of Man to join the board. Um, there had always been a senior partner at my law firm who had served in that capacity and there happened to be an opening and, uh, they reached out and said, would you consider joining the board? You’re with the firm, you’ve got this PhD in anthropology.

And, um, they started telling me that they had been going through a difficult time and had a difficult separation with their former executive director. And had just hired a search firm to do a national search for a new CEO and I had literally a light bulb moment where I just thought, oh my goodness, that would be the most amazing job ever.

And I threw my name into the hat and was very fortunate to kind of be in the right place at the right time with all the qualifications on paper. Um, and then I, I started to find my way from there.

[00:03:16] Brenda Cowan: Amazing. Like I said, Abby, Renaissance man.

[00:03:19] Abigail Honor: Yeah. But also it’s really refreshing to hear about people who will trust in others, not necessarily just because their resume is exactly what they’re looking for, but because their skillset and what they bring to the table matches what the job needs.

So. Talking about the Museum of Us, what sort of exhibits like will I see there? What time periods are covered? What should a visitor think about when they think about the Museum of Us? Can you tell me?

[00:03:44] Micah Parzen: You know, it’s a place that really invites people, um, into a transformational journey where your assumptions might be challenged.

Um, you’re exposed to different ways of thinking and being in the world. It’s really interesting. If you, um, read our social media reviews, we tend to either get five star. Or one star, um, you deeply resonated with me. I love this place. All museums should be like this. Oh my goodness. Or avoid that place like the plague.

It’s the, um, you know, woke cancellation culture at its worst. And, um. I think that that’s a really good sign, even though

[00:04:24] Brenda Cowan: mm-hmm.

[00:04:24] Micah Parzen: It’s sometimes difficult, um, to read those extremes because, um, we are touching a nerve and we are either deeply resonating with people’s values and they want more, or they’re, um, feeling defensive and threatened and challenged.

And so we have a wide variety of exhibits about difficult issues like immigration and, um, the harm that’s been caused by colonialism to indigenous peoples. So it’s a little bit of everything about. Um, what it means to be human in all of its manifestations.

[00:04:54] Brenda Cowan: It was around 2020 when you were working with your constituents, the staff, the board, to change the name of the San Diego Museum of Man to the Museum of Us, or eventually it became the Museum of Us.

Can you fill us in on this initiative and what you encountered when you were, uh, making this major change?

[00:05:16] Micah Parzen: Um, there was a small group of folks who were affiliated with the National Organization of Women, and they started to complain that the name of the museum was too limiting. And, and the organization actually, um, considered it at the time, at least two or even three times, they put it up to a vote of the membership who roundly, um, decided against the name change at that time and, um, we eventually got to the point as an institution that the world had changed around us so much and, um, the museum had changed so much, but um, the name was still the same. And so I. Um, we started down that path in earnest in 2017 or 18 with board support, um, to find the path toward a new name if possible.

And, um, the community sort of freaked out. Um, they couldn’t imagine that we would change the name and the nostalgic Museum of Man and I grew up with that. And that’s all political correctness and all the rest. So, um, we put it all on pause. We were sort of paralyzed. And then COVID, um, hit of course in 2020 and we decided that one thing we could really control in that sort of space of chaos was, um, how we represented ourselves to the, the outside world and how we thought of ourselves.

And so in August, um, we, uh, announced the new name as the Museum of Us, and, um, it was quite a bumpy ride filled with love and, and support, but also criticism. We ended up on Tucker Carlson and Fox News, who lambasted the change as, you know, woke cancellation culture run amok and political correctness at its worst.

In many ways, as difficult as that was and how the juggernaut of hate kind of emerged from that, it was the best thing that happened to us, um, because it really allowed us to be crystal clear about who we are as an organization and what we stand for, and it really forces us continuing, you know, almost five years later now to every day ask the question, what does it really mean to be a museum that is truly for all of us.

[00:07:19] Brenda Cowan: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:19] Micah Parzen: And not just for the usual suspects.

[00:07:21] Brenda Cowan: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:22] Abigail Honor: Yeah.

[00:07:22] Brenda Cowan: You know, you mentioned, uh, the years of the pandemic, and tell us about your call to serve community needs and what the Museum of Us looked like during the COVID years.

[00:07:34] Micah Parzen: You know, we really, like everybody was struggling, you know, what role do we play? How, you know, what do we do? Do we hunker down? You know, what does this look like? And. It dawned on us that, you know, back in the 1940s during World War II, uh, the museum had actually, uh, been converted by the Navy into a hospital to care for the sick and wounded.

So we decided to put out a, a one page, um, proposal to serve community need. And in it we explain this sort of history and that here we are in a moment. The museum’s got these amazing assets in terms of its, um, building its location, its, um, staff. Um, and, um, if there’s some way that we can, um, be a pos play a positive role in the midst of all this pain and suffering, uh, that was the pandemic.

We wanna do that. And so we got hundreds and hundreds of responses. You know, we were trying to think differently about the role museums could play in the community. And, uh, if we can’t be open to the public to show exhibits and do our usual thing, um, let’s think differently about what that, what it could look like.

[00:08:42] Abigail Honor: Micah, often you’re saying things like, is there something I can do? It seems to me like you don’t have a large fear factor. It feels a bit like every, anything can be thrown at you. Is that because you’ve been an attorney? Is that ’cause you’re a tough cookie? Is it ’cause of your upbringing? Why is it that you are so A, willing to do things for people and B, fearless.

[00:09:02] Micah Parzen: I, I do think, um, having never worked a day in a museum gave me kind of a superpower, you know?

[00:09:07] Brenda Cowan: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:08] Micah Parzen: In many ways it was a weakness, right? I didn’t have all the experience under my belt, but I also didn’t have all the baggage about what a museum should be, who it should be for, what role should it play in the community, how it should be run.

And I could ask all the kind of dumb questions and, and not, um, be satisfied with, well, that’s just how we do things, right? I mean, when you’re a hammer. Everything looks like a nail. You know, I think museum professionals are often no different, uh, that you’re trained a certain way and that’s your comfort zone.

And so coming in, um, kind of with beginner’s mind was very, um, I think valuable for me and, and allowed me to do a lot of things. I think bringing both an anthropological background and knowing how to think like an anthropologist and very open-ended, um, curious, um, sort of human centered ways. And then also being able to think like a lawyer in very, you know, action oriented problem solving, analytic ways kind of gave me a lot of tools in my toolbox to, um, know that I didn’t have to be afraid of, of, of pushing the boundaries.

[00:10:11] Brenda Cowan: What I would love to follow up on. In this vein of thinking is one of my favorite moments where on social media there was a piece about your ask, the CEO and listeners, he was set up in a little booth, kind of, uh, imagine Lucy’s booth in the Peanuts comics. And Micah, you made yourself available to visitors to ask any question they like. This is daring. So as I understand it, it was rather successful and very positive. And that there was also an encounter with a young visitor who was asking some pretty difficult questions. Would you fill us in on what happened?

[00:10:49] Micah Parzen: You know, we’re in a, a field of curiosity, right? Like, how are we supposed to do better if we don’t get the input from the folks we’re ostensibly serving?

So. Um, there have been a lot of wonderful benefits of being out on the floor in that way. And again, tomorrow will be my second time. One is that my team sees me engaged with the visitors

[00:11:09] Brenda Cowan: mm-hmm.

[00:11:10] Micah Parzen: In ways that they have to do every day, um, and field these difficult questions. Why did you change the name? Um, you know, what is, why do you have an exhibit about race?

That museum shouldn’t be political. Um, you know, why are you giving back the belongings and ancestors to indigenous peoples? Um, and in fact, the, the young man you referred to, he sat down, his dad was sort of walking around and giving me, um, furtive looks, uh, from time to time. Uh, and, and also I could tell very grateful that I was taking the time to speak to his son, and his son took me to task on our decolonial work and the idea that.

You know, why would we want to, um, return these belongings and ancestors to these more sort of primitive peoples and that, um, shouldn’t science sort of be, you know, considered the, um, kind of proper way of understanding the world. And, you know, I pulled out every tool I had and every trick in the book to try to.

Kind of persuade him of the long, deep, dark history of how institutions like museums, um, had harmed indigenous communities and the government, um, all the horrible things that have happened. And he was not buying anything I was selling. I. Although I’ve also learned from this work that, um, sometimes you don’t even see the impact until

[00:12:37] Brenda Cowan: mm-hmm.

[00:12:38] Micah Parzen: Um, years and years later.

[00:12:40] Brenda Cowan: A hundred percent.

[00:12:40] Micah Parzen: Um, and, and it’s so important to just stay the course and hold the space and, um, eventually, you know, the arc of the moral universe bends towards justice as Martin Luther King said.

[00:12:52] Abigail Honor: I know you work in the museum on being what you call anti-racist. So how was racism manifest in the museum maybe before you or in your first few years, and how are you effectively changing that?

[00:13:04] Micah Parzen: The origin story of the San Diego Museum of Man is that, the first exhibit was called The Story of Man through the ages, and it was, um, a series of about a hundred, um, morphological busts of representing the different races. So there were caucasoid busts and negro busts and mongoloid busts and the, sort of, um, pseudoscientific racist presentation was that because of the shape of these different skulls of the different races, um, the brain was shaped in different ways too. And of course that meant that the  caucasoid brain was superior to these other races. And, um, it was really designed as an effort to promulgate the eugenics movement of the, um, early 19 hundreds along those lines when anthropology museums and the work of physical anthropologists was sort of used in this, um, as a form of scientific racism.

So that’s the how the museum began. Over the years, the museum did many harmful things to indigenous communities. They took their belongings and ancestors refused to give them back. Um, the museum supported research expeditions of a guy named Stanley Petraeus, who was a psychologist who administered intelligence tests in Australia.

To justify the genocide of aboriginal peoples there. Um, you know, the museum did fashion shows in the 1950s that had trustees and donors and volunteers wearing sacred ceremonial garments, um, on display for sort of fun and show. So when we say anti-racist, when we say decolonial, we mean telling the truth about those histories.

[00:14:46] Brenda Cowan: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:47] Micah Parzen: How we’ve harmed those communities in ways sometimes, unintentionally, but oftentimes because we thought we were justified and entitled to do so, it’s holding ourselves accountable for the role we played in promulgating those harms. And then most importantly, it’s coming up with concrete action steps for how we can do better now that we know better.

And um, I tell you, some really magical things emerge from taking that, that approach.

[00:15:16] Brenda Cowan: Let’s dive into the present moment. As a highly progressive, forward-thinking cultural institution, the Museum of Us must be weathering a lot in the current cultural and political climate. And as we all know, museums are being targeted in a variety of ways regarding content, funding sources, how they serve their communities.

We’ve got the Smithsonian being attacked. Grant sources being shut down. Okay, Micah. How is the Museum of Us operating with best practices? In these difficult times.

[00:15:52] Micah Parzen: A couple things we’ve done kind of early on in, in that vein. Um, the first was we offered a Know Your Rights workshop for, uh, immigrant and refugee communities who were under such fire early on with the executive orders.

Um, and we opened that up to the entire park, and, uh, nonprofits throughout the community. Soon after that, we did a, um, trans, um, non-binary allyship workshop. Along those same lines, right? You have these executive orders that are basically saying these people do not exist and it is causing, um, retraumatizing them in all sorts of ways, right?

Um, how can we be better allies to those folks in this moment of such great need? Right? Um, so those were some of the things we sort of did early on, but we decided that, you know, in this moment where we’re all flailing and exhausted and reacting to all this horrible news and trying to understand and, and we just have such little gas in the tank, we decided that we would begin a planning process.

To identify a path whereby we are engaging in a three year initiative, um, which will, um, both involve fundraising, but also a commitment from the board of up to a million dollars a year for three years, so that we can scale up our cultural resources team so that we can begin to put a real dent in returning the belongings and ancestors of the 186 indigenous communities throughout the world whose belongings and ancestors we hold. One of my trustees framed it: the museum will never be free until it really prioritizes this commitment. We won’t be free spiritually.

[00:17:37] Brenda Cowan: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:37] Micah Parzen: We won’t be free morally. We won’t be free ethically.

[00:17:41] Abigail Honor: When you give them back, are they going to be taken care of or does it not matter? Is it they can do with them whatever they want? Is that the general mentality when you hand them over? It’s says they do with them what they want. Even if they disintegrate.

[00:17:52] Micah Parzen: It really is Abby. It’s none of our business. They weren’t our take in the first place. We don’t even ask because it’s up to them.

These are often living animate beings for them. You know, they’re not objects, they’re, they’re part of their knowledge system and way of being in the world. And, um. They’re sacred, right? And, um, our business is just to help them, um, get to the point where, where they are reunited with, um, their belongings and ancestors.

[00:18:22] Abigail Honor: If everything disintegrates in theory on mass, everyone decides to do what you are doing. Then how does the history get preserved for future generations? Is it just gonna be a written down oral or photographic history based on whatever documents you’ve managed to keep? How is it all not disintegrated?

[00:18:37] Micah Parzen: We have found, uh, after doing many of years of this work, that when we, um, consult with indigenous communities about their belongings and whether they would like them back, while many of them do want them back, others don’t want them back. They want the museum to continue to hold them, but they might have very different standards, um, for how we take care of them.

And, um, who has access to them and what kind of research is allowed, if any? Right. Um, I’ll tell you a quick story. We had a Messiah cultural Ambassador come a, a few years ago, and our practice was to lay everything we had from Messai land out on that table. And he came in and we said, we’d like to give these things back to you if you’d like them.

He said, no, you know, we. We have other examples of these belongings and, and we’d like you to keep them, but you see that spear over there, um, that’s a really important part of our culture. And, um, it’s dying. You’re not taking care of it. And the way that we take care of it is we rub it with sheep’s fat and that allows it to come to life, both physically and spiritually in all sorts of ways. And, um, as you know, bringing organic materials into museum settings and you know, is against sort of best practices. And it can bring in critters and there are justifications of course, but based on our decolonial values, we said alright we went the next day. We got some sheep fat. We did exactly how he had instructed, and sure enough, the spear came to life in a completely new way. So the things we still have, Abby, are here with informed consent.

[00:20:16] Brenda Cowan: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:16] Micah Parzen: With a lot deeper, more holistic knowledge, not just Western academic knowledge. And in the process of doing that and giving belongings back to their home communities.

You embark on a process of relational repair, right? Where, um, something previously unaddressed harm. That just festered and caused resentment and anger and sadness and trauma can begin to come out and be, be healed on both sides.

[00:20:47] Abigail Honor: I was gonna say, you actually, you are learning from them and all of their experiences and so it’s like a partnership then moving forward.

[00:20:54] Brenda Cowan: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:54] Micah Parzen: Right.

[00:20:55] Abigail Honor: As you both are custodians and taking care of these incredible artifacts or, or sacred objects, so how involved in that. Ex in the exhibit storytelling. ’cause you’re a great storyteller.

[00:21:06] Brenda Cowan: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:06] Abigail Honor: So how into the exhibit design do you get, have you got any comments on what works well for your visitors from an immersive or experiential perspective?

You know, what are your thoughts on design?

[00:21:17] Micah Parzen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I’ve thought a lot about it, and you’re right. I’m not an expert by any stretch, although learned a lot from my team. And I really hire good people and then get out of their way, right? And I’m always there to sort of on high kind of support and maybe say, well, shouldn’t we be thinking about this?

But I will share with you about. Maybe 10 years ago now, we decided to eliminate the role of curator and hire only exhibit developers and exhibit developers are more like shepherds. They’re project managers. They bring together a wide variety of lived experiences and diverse voices from within the organization, from outside the organization.

And they kind of weave it all together into a, a mosaic or tapestry, right? That is. Always much richer, um, and, and much fuller than, um, you know, a single person’s vision. We have a, a litmus test for joining our board of trustees, and it applies to the staff as well. And that is that you cannot be the smartest person in the room.

And we say that tongue in cheek, but it’s very effective. Uh, and it sends the message that we don’t care how smart you are, you’re drowning out and you’re taking up all this space of the multiplicity of voices that are, are the collective beehive that is always wiser. And, um, frankly more interesting

[00:22:34] Brenda Cowan: mm-hmm.

[00:22:34] Micah Parzen: Than one person’s perspective.

[00:22:36] Abigail Honor: Well, it’s what we talk about all the time. I mean, yeah. On the show, or I complain about all the time, is exactly the way you put it. The curators go deep and go small. You need to make sure that you’re including everybody at the level that they’re coming into the museum at, and when it’s hot topics, it’s incredibly difficult.

You can have phenomenal results if you get it right, but I know how hard that is and really can appreciate what you are doing over there at the Museum of Us.

I think it’s worth talking about audience just for a moment, right?

[00:23:06] Brenda Cowan: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:06] Micah Parzen: Because you, you raised that, you know, we have just committed that our, our primary audience are people of color who have never felt welcome in a museum like ours.

And mainstream museum. Our secondary audience is, um, people who are ally, want to be allies, ally, curious. They wanna learn more. And then our tertiary sort of third level audience is everybody else and almost everybody else, right? Like there are some people who are just want to cause harm to this kind of work and others who just come from a different experience.

And I, and I think one of the, um, biggest challenges we have is how do we. Make a lot of space for meeting people where they’re at and bringing them along wherever they are on their journey, while still not compromising and diluting the message to people of color that this is a museum that honors your lived experience because the dominant narrative we’re, we’re swimming in that fishbowl all the time. We’re breathing that air, right? We don’t need to those are the stories that are just always being told without us even realizing it, right?

[00:24:11] Brenda Cowan: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:12] Micah Parzen: And so we believe that the world needs spaces that those other alternative, um, lived experience and perspectives need to be really highlighted and not just in a culturally specific museum.

It’s not that you go to the African American Museum of History and Culture in the Smithsonian to learn about the black experience. The black experience is the American experience, right? And it should be baked into any exhibit right, in meaningful ways. Um, so that we’re not just in that echo chamber.

We’re not just. You know, breathing that same air over and over and over again without even realizing it.

[00:24:48] Abigail Honor: I just wanted to say a huge thank you. This has been absolutely fantastic and truly inspirational. Now, you talked about exhibit developers as shepherds. I feel very much like we’ve, we’ve been in the presence of a, of a major shepherd today.

Uh, lead leading not only the museum, but your community and the community at large. Um, forward. So thank you for joining the show.

[00:25:09] Brenda Cowan: Thank you, Micah.

[00:25:10] Micah Parzen: My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. I’ll come back anytime.

[00:25:14] Brenda Cowan: Absolutely.

[00:25:15] Abigail Honor: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience wherever you listen to the podcast, and make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend.

We’ll see you next time. Goodbye everyone.

[00:25:31] Audio Engineer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

[00:00:00] Abigail Honor: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast that explores the creativity, psychology, and innovation driving designed experiences. A big, hearty welcome to everyone listening. My name is Abigail Honor.
[00:00:17] Brenda Cowan: Hello everyone. This is Brenda Cowen.
[00:00:19] Abigail Honor: So today’s guest is Spencer Luckey, who leads Luckey Climbers and is a self-declared kid architect.
Luckey Climbers, for those who don’t know or who have seen one of over 80 that exist around the world, but don’t realize who made them, are those impressive climbing structures often in museums, but other locations too that are sort of suspended environments that hang and are intertwined spaces you can crawl through.
Um, Spencer’s work is a joyful rebellion against adult centric spaces turning architecture into a playground of exuberance, spontaneity, and connection. To quote him directly in his manifesto, he writes, climbers are kids built voice reminding us that design isn’t just about structure, it’s about soul movement and meeting.
So, uh, he builds not for power or prestige, but for celebration. For the questions kids ask and the delight we still carry. Spencer, a huge welcome to the show.
[00:01:21] Brenda Cowan: Welcome.
[00:01:22] Spencer Luckey: Thank you for that generous introduction. It’s just, um, you know, it’s a huge honor to come down here, to New York City to talk to really anyone but myself.
And, um, so I just, I think this is really incredibly, um, exotic and, and delightful as a sort of suburban mouse. I’m, I’m thrilled to be here.
[00:01:41] Abigail Honor: What’s it like, uh, working with kids, you know, and being surrounded in a kid’s world all the time?
[00:01:47] Spencer Luckey: One of the funny things about my business is I don’t actually work with kids.
I work almost exclusively with adults, and one of the things that I’m always constantly trying to eradicate is this sort of adult sensibility because it’s just. It just to sort of make way for kids to have their own imagination and have their own, um, you know, agendas. Uh, the big project of childhood is in a way, uh, trying to get more rights.
And so what they really want to do is have agency, you know, that’s like the end result of these rights. So. If you put them in a fake fire truck or something, which is, you know, could be cool if it was a real firetruck, right? Because then the kid would feel like they were, you know, acting out a, a, a real life fantasy or something.
But if you put them in a fake one, they’ll, they’ll play along with it for a little while, but they’ll pretty much not be firemen. Um, so that just goes out the window immediately and it really just becomes this thing that adults sold to other adults. And, you know, and they all kind of nodded along. Yeah, we’ll put the fire truck over here by the tree and, um, you know, and it’s, it’s well intended, but at the end of the day, kids are going to age out of that and they’re going to think to themselves, you know, I can’t go in that thing because it’s no longer compelling, um, use of my time and furthermore, it’s gonna like undermine my agenda, which is getting more rights.
[00:03:18] Abigail Honor: Yeah. So kids have taste and visual preferences. I mean, how they, they have preferences about everything as soon as they almost pop out, but they have, uh, they do have sort of aesthetic reactions to color and form quite early on. So how does their aesthetic sensibilities influence your work and, um, what materials do you use?
[00:03:39] Spencer Luckey: I have no idea how my sensibilities, um, influence kids or anything like that. I can only do what any other person in my situation, um, who’s honest about what they’re doing does. And that is just try to please myself. I’m not saying that I’m trying to make, you know, flat, black sort of chrome, weird battleship things with, uh, dazzled, but I’ve done a lot of thi, I mean, I’ve tried to make evil climbers. I really have, because I just think it’s funny, I, you know, would have an evil piece of playground equipment that people, as a matter of fact, we try to do this evil one out in, um, Normal, Illinois and unbeknownst to the engineers, I changed out these, you know, really critical, um, connection parts in the ceiling and to be, instead of these sort of dorky things, to be these really menacing claws very articulated and stuff. And, um, and you know, and then I confessed to him that these were, you know, new and better and evil and he edited them out. We had to.
[00:04:40] Brenda Cowan: No, we’d
[00:04:41] Spencer Luckey: hack them out. Yeah. People were, he was genuinely not on board with that as an agenda, you know, as a designer and art or artist or sculptor or whatever you wanna call me.
That’s my, the only thing I’m capable of really doing authentically is pleasing myself. So I have this simple rule where I just, you know, I, I try not to kid myself. I, I, I never finish something and then send it right out because I need to sleep on it a little.
[00:05:09] Brenda Cowan: Bit. Mm-hmm.
[00:05:10] Spencer Luckey: But then I never send it out unless I actually genuinely love it and I can think about all the reasons why I love it and you know, have a sort of rational response to my original sort of emotional action.
[00:05:23] Brenda Cowan: I think that there’s something about how open-ended your experiences are is probably why it appeals to kids. And well, and adults, but you know, kids, you know, beyond the age of four or five. Right. I think that they invite imagination and exploration and curiosity in a way that you get to, you get to decide what this is about and what it’s for and how to use it even.
[00:05:53] Spencer Luckey: Yeah. And at the end of the day, I mean, you know, the high sort of highest end I can think of is to have people come away feeling a little bit better about themselves and the world, and I don’t know if that, if it’s through an open-ended experience, I’ll take it.
[00:06:12] Brenda Cowan: There you go.
[00:06:13] Abigail Honor: I have a quick question about stakeholders. A lot of the museums we work on have many, many, many stakeholders. So we could have the local community, um, we could have, um, historians, curators, educators, people from the government, um, but we really make sure that we’re involving that community, who we are building the museum for. People who are going to use it.
You just mentioned that you are working directly with adults. Are you, when are you bringing the kids in? Are you prototyping with the kids? Do they have any involvement at all from the moment you’re awarded the job to the moment you open the experience?
[00:06:56] Spencer Luckey: To be perfectly honest, and you can put this in your podcast, I, I don’t.
I do my best in the early interviews to make it clear that I, I would much prefer to, to work alone in my office and then make suggestions and then they make decisions. You know, if they want to go and show it to a bunch of kids after I’ve done it, that’s fine. But I don’t wanna end up with a look, a kind of a brownness to, um, or grayness to sort of collaborative artwork.
You know, it’s hard enough, you know, somebody gives you a couple of bucks and you, you’ve gotta produce something that you think is compelling. In the early days, when I first got into this business, that I would fly out to wherever with the model and I would show them the model. And that was this, you know, had a lot of sort of emotional gravity to it in this, you know, nice set of drawings and all of that.
And, and they would, you know, we could converse and there would be a sort of substantive conversation. But these days, you know, I’m lucky if I can get my counterpart on the phone. So I’m often in this situation where I’m like, well, I’ll just, I, I mean, I, I wanna know what they have to say about this, and it doesn’t really matter what I say. I mean that, that’s a proven fact. So, um, I just email it to them with something like, here’s the latest.
[00:08:12] Abigail Honor: I think I’m just subject jealous. I think it’s jealousy and also like. You are an artist then, so the more I’m learning about your process and what you are you are creating for people to enjoy and experience is that it’s very much like an artist creating something.
[00:08:26] Brenda Cowan: In a way, it’s, what a, what a blessing.
[00:08:30] Abigail Honor: Oh, it’s fantastic.
[00:08:30] Brenda Cowan: To be able to make something with your hands that is truly unique. There’s a particular climber that you did in California that you were particularly fond of.
[00:08:45] Spencer Luckey: Oh, the Irvine Spectrum Center?
[00:08:46] Brenda Cowan: Yeah, of course,
[00:08:48] Spencer Luckey: For sure.
[00:08:48] Brenda Cowan: Okay. Can you tell us about it?
[00:08:51] Spencer Luckey: Yeah, so, um, we got this really amazing, I mean, there’s this, this mall out in Irvine, California, and um, so they sent me these drawings and it was gonna be under this, um, pergola thing.
And, um, so we made it so it just scratched the ceiling of the pergola and, you know, it was gonna be too big for the space, which is kind of like one of my things, you know. How can we get more into this? How can we sort of make it look like it’s not supposed to be here, but it is here. It’s sort of like a, Richard Serra, I guess, is a good example of somebody who does that.
So it has a helix on the top and then these, um, sort of, uh, curved leg. So it’s just like the weirdest, nobody would ever recognize it as a sawhorse, but that’s my structural concept. And then it just sort of evolved and one day I noticed that there was this kind of tunnel that I was kind of making inadvertently, you know, I don’t know how much work you guys do in computer computer modeling, but you know, the computer teaches you or sort of truncates you into this sort of state of like, you don’t accept anything but perfection.
So, you know, I’m like making part of it perfect. And meanwhile neglecting the other part of it. ’cause I only wanna, you know, work at this one little park ’cause that’s all I can see on my computer screen. So I, I pan out and I’m like, wow, that’s a really cool thing. There’s this space under there. What if there’s like a walkthrough and then there’s pathways?
And one of the things that happens in California projects specifically is that they ask for an ADA accommodation. And, um, having spent a lot of time with my severely handicapped father who was also in the climber business. You know, we made any number of, um, sort of accommodations for the handicapped population.
So what I did was compose this funny little trail through the underside of this climber that a kid in a wheelchair could very easily navigate. That’s totally unmarked and, um, I have no idea again whether kids in, in, in wheelchairs end up there. I mean, the truth of the matter is that. I never talked to the client about it at all. They don’t know it’s there.
[00:10:58] Abigail Honor: Oh, that’s interesting. Oh, okay. You just put it in there.
[00:11:01] Spencer Luckey: I just, it just happened. You know, it’s one of those things, like I said, you sort of fixate on something in the computer and then all of a sudden you realize what you’ve done and then you, you know, you move a couple little things to sort of. Make it a little bit more legit, but not much more legit.
[00:11:16] Brenda Cowan: I love that serendipity can happen with a computer experience.
[00:11:19] Spencer Luckey: I mean, you have to acknowledge that that’s your medium, you know?
[00:11:22] Brenda Cowan: Sure. Your tool. Yeah.
[00:11:24] Spencer Luckey: And, um, you know, it’s an amazing tool. I love computer modeling. I probably wouldn’t have made it through architecture school where it not for computer modeling, I can’t draw particularly well. I mean, I can draw well enough to sort of like please myself. Mm-hmm. Or not even please myself. I used to actually the opposite, annoy myself and to, you know, sort of test something and then get to this point where I’m like, this has no scale, that it’s so ugly, you know, it looks nothing like what I had in my head,
[00:11:54] Brenda Cowan: Uhhuh.
[00:11:54] Spencer Luckey: And, but you know, it, it, it has a sort of geometric reality and so then, you know, you take what you can from that.
[00:12:02] Abigail Honor: But how big are these square footage wise? So the audience can, Ima imagine them in general.
[00:12:07] Spencer Luckey: You know, some of them are quite large. We’re we just finished one down in, um, Carmel, Indiana. That’s, uh, about 60 or 70 feet long. It’s really pretty, um, amazing. It’s a, we’ve just figured out how to put, uh, a, dynamic light, lED lights in our climbers.
[00:12:26] Abigail Honor: So do the LEDs, are they lighting up the stages of so that where, where you sort of step onto or are they, um, is it for something in the evening so you can see and still climb in the evenings?
[00:12:36] Spencer Luckey: Is it weird for me to show you a picture?
[00:12:38] Abigail Honor: No, no. Show us picture.
[00:12:41] Spencer Luckey: So this is the first generation LED.
[00:12:45] Abigail Honor: Oh, it’s lovely. Oh my gosh. Gorgeous. It’s like lily pads that are all illuminated around the edge.
[00:12:50] Spencer Luckey: Yeah. And these ones, um, you know, they can change the, change the colors and um, it can sort of migrate from one color to another.
But, um, the most recent version,
[00:13:02] Abigail Honor: that’s very cool. Spencer’s showing us sort of how they illuminate and the color changes throughout them, so it really brings them to life.
[00:13:09] Spencer Luckey: It’s just the latest, greatest thing.
[00:13:10] Brenda Cowan: Looks like falling pedals. So, so many of your climbers make me think of falling pedals.
[00:13:15] Abigail Honor: That’s very exciting. They also look like disco. Like I wanna get in that now.
[00:13:18] Brenda Cowan: Okay. Disco falling pedals.
[00:13:21] Abigail Honor: Yeah. I wanna get,
[00:13:21] Spencer Luckey: And here’s the rave version.
[00:13:22] Abigail Honor: Yeah, yeah. I’m so there. That is definitely bringing up to 11 to 13 year olds. I’m there.
[00:13:28] Spencer Luckey: There’s the super patriotic version.
[00:13:30] Abigail Honor: Oh, very nice. Red, white, and blue.
[00:13:32] Brenda Cowan: Amazing. Back to thinking about working with clients, what are the skills that you employ? What do you need to really do to be able to do this really unique kind of work? You’re not off the shelf?
[00:13:47] Spencer Luckey: Well, first and foremost, I try to make a friend. Mm-hmm. You know, it’s like nobody wants to do anything with somebody they don’t like, so it’s not in a manipulative way. I, I, you know, I actually really like people. So that’s always my first agenda is to, to try to, I don’t know, be amusing. And sometimes I overdo it and, you know, turn people off. I don’t know, I, I, it’s precarious right at the beginning. The first conversations are always sort of fraught in a way. You know, I generally, um, try to understand what their agenda is, what they want out of the climber, what they, you know, the, try to understand the architecture that it’s gonna go into, and. You know who their audience is. Um, you know, sometimes I get it completely wrong the first time, the second time, the third time, the fourth time, sometimes they lose patience with me and then don’t, you know, they ghost me. And I don’t know, it’s just, again, it’s like goes back to that. I send something, send somebody a, an email and with a bunch of pictures that I’m totally intrigued by, and then I hear nothing back.
But that happens, you know? Mm-hmm. It’s just as part of the game, I suppose.
[00:14:55] Brenda Cowan: But it’s the, you’ve got the creative process that you’re going through, which has its own ups and downs and unknowns and uncertainties, and then epiphanies, and then, you know, moments when you’re really energized. And I was, I’m really curious, like when you see a space where a climber will someday live.
What’s that like? Does like, do things start to pop into your head or?
[00:15:17] Spencer Luckey: Well, I, you know, I’m part Vulcan, so I always try to sort of like, look through the walls and see where the lines of structure are. Um, I try really hard to make something, design something that is, that’s, you know, complimentary to the architecture, to the structure of the building. Um, and we’re doing this project, uh, this summer at a, at a little school down in Florida. And, um, I was sitting on a train and I just was like, you know, I should really work on that project. Started drawing these things. So I was like, okay, it has to be kind of like this, you know, two columns with a lintel. And I was, all right, you know, it’s dumb, dumb. Um, that’s stupid and it’s ridiculous. Ridiculous. I have pages of these, you know, sort of, uh, double T looking things. Um, in my sketchbook coming back from DC and, um, and then, you know, a couple of days later I was like, oh, it’s a pie symbol, you know, because they can go and talk about it. It definitely exceeded their expectations about, you know, what it could be. And, um, and it’s ridiculous. I think that, you know, you have to just allow your, um, you know, kind of get conversant with what the problem is in a sense. Um, you know, we did this funny project in, um, Moscow a bunch of years ago, and they were like, you know, Ve vant zis space zeeme. Alright, space theme. What does that mean? You know, so, you know, my most sort of weirdo notions of space or sort blobs and, you know, and they’re like, this just not, we don’t get it, you know? But then I was like, you know what they want again? They want to feel good about themselves. They want to get it. They don’t want to be left out of the joke. They don’t, you know, none of that’s, it’s totally invalid in a way. And so we have this way of making like a tripod. My old man was obsessed with these. He, a lot of his climbers were just these simple tripods. ’cause it’s the simplest structure. My old man. Just like his son is a, was a bit of a Vulcan. And, um, but I tried to best him by making this one where the, the tripod with this and the sticks pass, um, passed the vertex. And then I was like, wow, what if I put like an atom symbol around it? Because, you know, one of the problems with that structure is that the top of it, you know, can, is a cantilever, but so, but if you constrain it with these hoops that make the atom symbol and all of a sudden I was like, it’s Russian constructivism. Like right there.
[00:17:52] Abigail Honor: And they loved it.
[00:17:53] Spencer Luckey: And they loved it immediately.
[00:17:54] Brenda Cowan: Oh my god. And there you go. The pitch.
[00:17:56] Abigail Honor: So he does know how very well to talk to clients and how to spin the work he does.
[00:18:01] Brenda Cowan: I know that we’re out of time, but I have to ask one quick question, which is, so I am a professor of design students and I would love to know, what advice would you give young creative folks right now who wanna build things and create things for others?
[00:18:21] Spencer Luckey: I was a never the teacher’s pet in school. Um, and so I’m, I’m kind of the last person that you should ask that kind of a question to. But what’s worked for me is, again, to be, to be honest and to be kind of cold with my, um, with my reflections on what I’ve done. Um, you know, a lot of my, uh, practice as a musician, you know, is it you just do scales, you know, or whatever it is again and again and again, and there’s no notion of perfection, it’s, you know, it’s fleeting. It’s, um, and you have to sort of, um, at least I try to just embrace my honest reflections on these things. And, and then I, I really try hard to never show anyone anything that I don’t love. Mm-hmm. It’s just a, and I, you know, I can’t put my finger on that, but, you know, I love the pie symbol. When I first, you know, I was like, this is, they’re gonna love it. I’m gonna love it. I can make it into something I’m gonna love. Or the constructivist thing or, um, the idea comes and it’s often, it’s not like epiphany or some sort of, it’s a process. You know, you have to again, get yourself so you’re kind of thinking about it, you know, when you’re, you know, doing laps in the pool or whatever it is you do. And just get it past the point where you’re in any kind of panic about it. Because that’s the, like the worst space for your brain, um, to be creative and get, you know, relaxed. One of the things that I learned in school was, you know, they have these hideous deadlines and they just come at you.
And so you have to learn to sort of compartmentalize the schedule and the stress and, um, and, you know, the, the context within which you’re operating and, and try to find calm in there. And, and not. Be reactive to your environment. Just stay on task. And it’s not that it’s a very hard thing to do, particularly when you’ve got your cell phone and you know, all the energy drinks and whatever goes on at science schools these days, um, but uh, yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s kind of it to me it’s the whole shoot and match is pleasing oneself. If you can’t honestly please yourself, you know, it’s kind of
[00:20:54] Brenda Cowan: How do you expect others, to fall in love?
[00:20:56] Spencer Luckey: Humans are really, really great at, um, spotting authenticity. And um, you know, you just can’t fake it.
[00:21:05] Abigail Honor: I completely agree. Just to sort of wrap it up here. No, I agree, Spencer, that when I’m listening to you, um, it’s never usually an epiphany could be a aha moment, but it’s at the end of a lot of work. It’s a process and you have to do to achieve something. Sitting and not doing as creatives and physical creative, whether it’s using a pen and a piece of paper or using a computer, you have to work through ideas to get to the idea. And so I just wanna say huge thank you for joining us on this show today. This is a pleasure.
[00:21:35] Spencer Luckey: What a huge honor it is.
[00:21:37] Abigail Honor: It’s been amazing. Like to glimpse into your life and how you make these incredible climbers, and I would like to challenge all our listeners, find the nearest climb and get in it.
[00:21:46] Brenda Cowan: Get in it.
[00:21:46] Abigail Honor: The kind of amazing and beautiful sculptures to actually even just, just look at, so. Thank you so much, Spencer. Thanks to everyone who tuned in. If you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of matters of experience wherever you listen to podcasts. And make sure to leave a rating and a review. Please share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.
[00:22:04] Brenda Cowan: Take care, everybody.
[00:22:08] Audio Engineer: Matters of experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

[00:00:00] Abigail Honor: Welcome to Matters of Experience at Podcast where explore the creativity, innovation, and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. Thank you for tuning in and supporting our conversation today. My name is Abby Honor.
[00:00:19] Brenda Cowen: Hello, I’m Brenda Cowen.
[00:00:20] Abigail Honor: So today it’s my pleasure to welcome Shirin Brückner to the show.
She is a founding partner of Atelier Brückner, which if you are in our business, you should have heard about them. And if you haven’t, go check out their work after the show because. It is incredible.
[00:00:37] Brenda Cowen: Mm-hmm.
[00:00:37] Abigail Honor: Shirin focuses on new business and management, but is still very much involved in the design process.
Um, in 2024, she was honored as an SEGD fellow and International Recognition for Visionary Leaders whose work sets the global standard in design excellence. And you are one of the Power 10 in the Blue Loop 50 Museum influencer list 2024. Which is an accomplished group of people from our industry. So Shirin, congratulations on all your recent accolades, and I know there’s even more that I didn’t list, but a huge welcome to the show.
[00:01:11] Shirin Frangoul-Brückner: Thank you very much for inviting me, and I’m happy to contribute to this podcast. Thank you.
[00:01:16] Brenda Cowen: We’re so excited to be talking with you today, Shirin, and just to get us kick started. Can you let us know what is it that attracted you to this industry in the first place? Do you have an origin story to share with our listeners?
[00:01:31] Shirin Frangoul-Brückner: Yeah, so basically this is a question which pops up quite often when people ask me, how did all this happen? Yeah. And um, I basically, I grew up in a very cultural, diverse family. So my father is a Iraqi, my mother is German. And in this mix of cultures, this really shaped my worldview and gave me a strong sense, uh, of resilience.
And from a very early age, I learned how somehow to interact with different perspective and also to embrace culture in really many different ways and forms. So also in school, I somehow, uh, was in both in mathematics, logical thinking and in creativity. And this is why I, at the end, I chose architecture and I really felt that is a perfect choice.
I’m so happy with not only with studying this, also in doing this as really this combination of, of logic and art. This is, um, sim, this is a very harmonious way of working and I think the next question is how, where was this big turning point for, um, from architecture to exhibition design? Yeah.
[00:02:45] Abigail Honor: Wait a minute. Let us ask the question. Otherwise you don’t need us. I love that about you. Yeah. My question was, what is it about experiential design that pulled you a little away from architecture?
[00:03:00] Shirin Frangoul-Brückner: It was more of just a, a coincidence I would say, you know? Um, and this was the moment when we got in touch with a client who bought the rights to exhibit, uh, the, the objects of which were found on the ground, um, in, of the sea for of the Titanic.
And, um, he somehow looked for somebody to design this. And, um, this was a chance for us, for me and my husband to, um. To work on this very, um, emotional topic, I would say on this story, which, um, everybody knows from films and I think this was the first real opportunity to somehow apply this architectural thinking to exhibition design on the one side.
But it was also very special that we could, um, focus on a emotional story, um, somehow to put the visitor in the center of experience. And this was somehow, and to tell stories along of different characters and persons. Yeah. And a different perception on one story of very different people. And I think this is, this was the turning point.
This was an exhibition with in Hamburg, in the Spy Hashad, uh, um, and it was the same, at the same time the film came out and, uh, together with this film, it was a really success story. Also having a different approach and exhibition design. Um, not only from the explanations, but also about talking about emotions and people behind that.
[00:04:39] Abigail Honor: When you got this job, did, did you handle most of that work? Did you hire for that work? How did you address the needs of a museum exhibition as opposed to an architectural project?
[00:04:50] Shirin Frangoul-Brückner: Basically, uh, we were a team, uh, of, um, architects and, uh, somehow project popped up and we didn’t have employees or something like that where I was directly after my studies.
And my husband also just finished studies in stage design and somehow with this friends, we. We just worked on the project. Yeah. And everybody brought in his, um, his, his knowledge. And we, uh, also with the background of my husband on stage design, we just put the, uh, visitor in a different place. He’s not looking at a stage, he’s part of the stage, I would say, or working on the stage.
And this, I think somehow this combination, this was how it happens, I would say. Yeah.
[00:05:35] Brenda Cowen: We would love to hear about how it is that Atelier Brückner transformed or moved from more of a small laboratory for scenography and architecture. Into what some would say is a powerhouse of design that it is today. Was it sort of a smooth evolution or were there challenges along the way?
[00:05:58] Shirin Frangoul-Brückner: Please tell us there are challenges. Shirin,
[00:06:01] Brenda Cowen: Abby loves all of the challenges. Abby loves the
drama.
[00:06:04] Abigail Honor: Say smooth sailing.
[00:06:06] Brenda Cowen: You love the drama.
[00:06:07] Abigail Honor: I do.
[00:06:07] Shirin Frangoul-Brückner: I think there are challenges every day. It would be boring if there were not challenges, but um, I think how was the transformation? Um, it’s, I think this is necessary.
That we all somehow move forward and create new things and face challenges. And if you ask for challenges, I cannot remember one. You know, because this is what we’ve overcome and forget and we should not keep them in mind. Um. Of course there was a lot of crying and uh, problems, but, um, but this is not the center of our thinking.
We are looking for the success. We are looking for the solutions. And I would say I’m also a very solution driven person. I don’t stay in the problem. I immediately think in possible solutions because only this brings us forward. I think, and this is one of my personal strengths with which I could contribute to this, uh, to the success of the company, I would say,
[00:07:04] Abigail Honor: That’s, that’s great.
And actually a lot of the, the leaders or the people who head up companies have that attribute and skill to be able to look straight to how do we solve this and move forward, always moving forward. Um, so I’ve heard you say form follows content, um, and you’re very dedicated to storytelling. So I’m interested to sort of chat about the idea of storytelling in the work you do and how that’s evolved over the last, let’s say 20, 25 years for you.
The process.
[00:07:35] Shirin Frangoul-Brückner: Yeah. I think when we started. Um, somehow storytelling did exist in, but not in exhibition or museum, not in classical museums design. It was more in, in, in theater or in films and all that. And we somehow moved from this purely didactic fact-based display design. Yeah. Um, to somehow a more immersive and emotional journey.
What, which we want to convey to, to our, uh, to our visitors. And it’s really the goal somehow that we engage with all its senses. Um, yeah. And, uh, somehow connect deeper on a really deeper level. Uh, with the content, and I think this is what also what stays in mind for the visitor. There’s also, of course, this question, what are the trends at the moment, um, in this, in this direction of storytelling?
And what I really see now, it’s a big shift towards participatory experiences. Um, so. Things like role play games or interactive storytelling or highly customized journeys for, um, special target groups. Yeah. And this is something which, which really, um, um, attracts people. Yeah. And also makes content, uh, accessible for, for, for everybody, I would say.
So even interacting with real guides, with other visitors with the space itself. Um, the, just interaction and exchange with physical people. I think this is something which really touches everybody and which somehow brings stories alive.
[00:09:20] Abigail Honor: Oh, that’s really interesting. Can you talk to us a little bit though, about the senses? Because these experiences really are, to be truly immersive, have to trigger all the senses. Can you talk about a couple of projects where you brought in smell or touch and, and why you decided to use those?
[00:09:34] Shirin Frangoul-Brückner: For example, the Ephesus Experience Museum. It’s directly in the ancient historic, uh, archeological site in Ephesus.
And here we created a digital journey, a visitor center through the ancient Ephesus in earlier times. So we somehow bring this, the artifact is the historic place. Yeah. And we somehow bring this artifact alive and, and try to. Try to explain to, to the visitor, uh, what did happen, what kind of, uh, uh, experience was it would have this been in these times for the people who lived during these times? Yeah. And I. We are, in this case, combining a visual storytelling, a large scale media production with a sound and interactive elements, but, uh, where the visitors really can see the history, but also they can feel it by stepping it into, and we, in this case, we created a lot of smells who somehow address not only the seeing and the hearing, but also the, the smelling of the surrounding in these times.
And I think I. The multisensory design, it really enhances the storytelling. It’s making it more tangible and emotionally powerful and leaving really long lasting experiences. Yeah,
[00:10:53] Brenda Cowen: Well,, the sense of smell in particular has this direct link with memory, and I can imagine people going into that experience and being able to be very, to be opened up to this broader experience and this history and the story that you’re crafting and also probably connecting a lot with their own memories and seeing the relevance between this history and even their own lives, um, and how they think.
[00:11:21] Abigail Honor: Can you talk a little bit about, because this is a problem we face all the time, so I’m like, great, I’ve got, Shirin, I can ask her exactly what they’re doing, what sort of groups you are talking about, and how you shepherd them and give them a unique journey that addresses their needs.
[00:11:35] Shirin Frangoul-Brückner: I think, um, there are different tasks and if I talk about target, um, audience driven experiences, often this are children experiences. For example, in the Grand Egyptian Museum, we have a complete, uh, which is a, uh, the Tutankhamun gallery we are designing is a very, um. Very, very object driven, um, experience. I would say only working with, with a lot of light and highlighting the, the stories behind the objects.
And for children, we have, um, a complete gallery where children can understand the society system in these times. Yeah. And understand what it means to be king and farmer and for example, and understand. What was the life in these times? What games did they play? How do they dress? And it’s a very physical experience where where there’s not one real object in there. It’s somehow creating, of course, a space, but a space which where children can interact with the content and with each other also. Yeah. But my favorite exhibition, which we, um, really created is, it’s a very small project, is the dialogue with time exhibition because, uh, this is, um make, making visitors, um, understand what it means, getting older.
And it’s a interesting concept because we casted old guides and these guides, um, somehow lead a group of visitors through the experience. And, uh, then, uh, visitors together with a guide, the complete group sit on a table and they start, um, um, discussing about ideas of being old and the guide tells his story and you are immediately in a situation where you are together with people you never would have known from different social backgrounds, from different, uh, whatever experiences and with come from different directions and cultures and everything.
And I think this is something when we talk about media driven exhibitions, which we did before, and more, um, low tech, uh, exhibitions where we try to really physically connect. This is something which is still something I really believe in. And, um, for all target groups.
[00:13:56] Abigail Honor: Has it been hard for you over the years to, to back away? How much guidance are you giving to the overall creative these days?
[00:14:04] Shirin Frangoul-Brückner: Uh, I would say this is, everything’s limited by time. We have, um, but also in the energy people have and take the jobs, you know, and I think, oh, we are really good in, in empowering people to somehow bring in their cool energy in, in the projects and take responsibility.
But also I think as, um, as a team leader or, uh, it is important to show people the way because I. We are every day facing impossible challenges. Yeah. Even I, if I see what we should do, I think, how should this work? Yeah. But it’s always step back, think a little bit different and, and then find some solution.
I just, uh, remember yesterday, two days ago, I got a call from an international, um, foundation we are working with, they want to have a museum of 5,000 square meters finished in September. Design and realization, high level showcases and all that. So of course you can say, uh, it’s not possible. Definitely.
Yeah. But you also can tell them what is possible. Yeah. And show a way to do it and. And I think this is something which, which is also my role in, in our office. Yeah. That, that somehow to, to, to go a step back, look at everything and really see, um, are we on the right track. Are there completely different ways to do things, um, and make these things possible?
Yeah.
[00:15:34] Brenda Cowen: What has changed and what has stayed the same over all of the years, over the past 27 years? Are your clients, are you finding that clients are coming to you and are really very different now than they were years ago or, or are the dynamics pretty much so the same.
[00:15:51] Shirin Frangoul-Brückner: They are younger. No, but uh, I think, um, it, it did not change so much, I would say because clients, they do museums or projects like that mo mostly only once a time in their life.
Yeah. And this is their project and they have been preparing this for 10 years and now it’s the moment when the designer comes on board and they are excited and, and they are, do it only once and they are not professionals in doing that. Yeah. So, um, I think this didn’t change, um, since, since I’m working in this business.
So, um, we are in very different, uh, situations. We are the professionals and we do it every day. Yeah. So the excitement is different and we need to guide these clients throughout the processes. And these clients are individual persons. Yeah. And we, I think we really need to under need to understand what, what are the positions of these people? What do they want? What is important for them as institution, but also as an individual, also a team member, director or whatever, on, on, on client side. And I would say that did not change so much throughout time.
[00:17:07] Brenda Cowen: People are people.
[00:17:08] Abigail Honor: One of my questions to you is, as you’ve grown and matured. Um, in this business, um, do you ever say no to a client or what are some of the things that you wish you could tell your 20 plus year old self that you do now that you didn’t use to do?
[00:17:22] Shirin Frangoul-Brückner: We are not good in saying no. So I am also facing sometimes the situation where I think I would really like to step out of this process, but, um, I also can say, uh, the, when we overcome this and the result is at the end good. I’m glad that I did not step out. Yeah. So I don’t try to do this. I try to, to really go through and, and, uh, finish the job with the best, what I can, we can contribute as company to the project because, um, I think in every project we are facing. The moments where, where it’s not so easy and uh, the question is when it’s getting so hard that you want to step out, is this and why not? Yeah. And, and everybody has a different level there. And, uh, so I. Sometimes it’s also simple because, uh, the contracts usually we as, um, as, as, as designers, we are not in a position to step out. Only the client can do this. So it’s very clear we mm-hmm should not think so much about stepping out, think about getting through and doing the best, I think. Yeah. But yeah.
[00:18:36] Abigail Honor: Funny. Yeah. There’s no way out. You’re locked in. What do you, um, as you’ve grown the company, have you had any more free time?
[00:18:43] Shirin Frangoul-Brückner: No, uh, I’m not a person who has free time. If I have free time, I have a new project. So I’m, uh, somehow, um, always active and, and looking for possibilities and, and somehow to bring myself and the company forward. So it is even not a target for me to have free time. I, I invest time for what I think is important and this is, uh, the freedom. I, I have, I would say, and this is, I would like to get this more.
[00:19:12] Abigail Honor: Yeah. Oh, well, that’s great.
[00:19:14] Brenda Cowen: It’s great. It begs the question, what are you currently passionate about?
[00:19:19] Shirin Frangoul-Brückner: I would say there are two answers, yeah?. Um, I’m really professionally, I’m really, um, uh, looking forward to a transforming experience somehow, uh, to provoke, um, curiosity and, um, inspire visitors. Um, I really want to somehow be engaged in, in what I do. Yeah, this is important. And it’s always also interesting to see after 27 years, where does exhibition design go? Yeah. What is the future? What are new formats? And I would say that I’m looking to a transformation. To bring my team in a position somehow to transform the company to a company, which in the next 10 years can even proceed.
Um, and we are in a process and changing structures and doing that. And it’s really inspiring to see how this works and how to have a team, uh, after 27 years, uh, who somehow, where we can throw around ideas, where we can challenge each other and create something remarkable together. And somehow, um, it’s a joy and that really these ideas always take shape and come to life. And this is what I’m passionate about.
[00:20:40] Abigail Honor: AI. Before we run out of time, how is your company integrating AI into the process of the designs or even the ideation right now?
[00:20:49] Shirin Frangoul-Brückner: Every day. Daily in daily work as we are using it for, um, creating moods, I would say. Yeah. Uh, visually creating moods, um, pre preparatory work, uh, on renderings. Then also storyboards, so mainly technical work. Um, which, where, where a lot of diligence is you is in, but can just be done and then adapted by the designers itself. So it’s, it’s, we use it really every day, everywhere.
[00:21:19] Abigail Honor: Is anybody in your company aware or feeling the effects that AI will potentially have on the 130 people?
Not on all 130 people, but there is. AI helps you push the ball further and you don’t need quite as large teams and you’ll have to remain competitive and efficient. So, you know, what are you thinking or talking about in terms of people?
[00:21:39] Shirin Frangoul-Brückner: I think we, what we have, we have, uh, two people only working on, um, on our ai.
Um, we created, for example, um, an, uh, an own ai, AI who can draw objects. We have of often 15,000 objects, which need to be digitalized 3D to put it in showcases. So we do these things. We somehow try to put all our information in our AI system that we can find the references of showcases or, uh, if somebody asks me, where did we have the showcase detail, ex epsilon, I don’t know.
It’s so, so many. Yeah. And we try to set up something whether I, I really serves our needs. Yeah. And I don’t think that we will have less people. We have just people doing different things. Yeah. We are people, um, taking care about this AI things. Why at the moment they are rendering or waiting all night that the render is done somewhere.
Yeah. Uh, uh, things like that. So the stupid work is going away or is getting reduced. Yeah. But the, the creative work, we still need people and it, I don’t believe that, um, there, there will be less people in office. Um, it’s just different, different, um, directions and different setups. Yeah.
[00:22:58] Abigail Honor: This has been an fantastic,
[00:23:00] Brenda Cowen: wonderful
[00:23:00] Abigail Honor: Shirin. Thank you for sharing with us all your perspective experiences. Um, and yeah, we could go on and on.
[00:23:08] Shirin Frangoul-Brückner: Yeah. It was a pleasure to contribute to, to this podcast and also pleasure to meet you both. Thank you.
[00:23:14] Brenda Cowen: Likewise.
[00:23:15] Abigail Honor: Yep. Yep. Thanks to everyone who tuned in today. Please subscribe for more episodes of matters of experience. Make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.
[00:23:25] Brenda Cowen: Thank you. Everyone.
[00:23:29] Audio Engineer: Matters of experience is produced by Lauren Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

Abigail Honor: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast that explores the creativity, innovation, and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. If you are new to the show, a hardy welcome to our regular listeners. Thank you for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor. Hello, this is Brenda Cowan.

Abigail Honor: Today we are talking with a very recognizable voice in our community, literally and figuratively. Jonathan Alger, Jonathan, many know you as the co-founder and managing partner of CNG Partners, where your clients run the gamut and include the nine 11 Museum, nasa, Cornell, the Smithsonian, US Department of State.

Abigail Honor: I, I can go on. You’ve been honored. Buy more initialisms than I can pronounce sequentially on this show. ’cause I tried. As well as being a two time winner of the A Am Muse Awards, he’s also served two terms of the president of SEGD and recently we’re all enjoying your podcast and newsletter, making the museum.

Abigail Honor: Jonathan, a huge welcome to the show.

Jonathan Alger: Very happy to be here. Thank you both for having me. I’m a big fan of your show.

Brenda Cowan: Thank you Jonathan. I happen to know that you’re a musician, you’re an avid reader, and I think of it as a collector of amazing true or sometimes not so true facts and anecdotes. You always seem to have an incredible story to share.

Brenda Cowan: That inevitably leaves me wondering. Is that for real? I also know that you appreciate it when others in your firm have and share what I’ll call out of work talents such as art making and music. So tell us how do your myriad personal and professional interests and talents synergize into the work that you do?

Jonathan Alger: I don’t know. Uh, I think that if I were giving advice to somebody today about pursuing a career or creating a company or both, I’m not sure I would advise them to do what we have done because I’m not sure that the environment is really conducive to that. You know, nowadays it’s all about specializing and, and what we do is sort of neither specializing nor generalizing, but, somewhere in between. And I think that’s a, that’s a difficult spot to be in, I think. But for us, it’s been great. We love the lifestyle of multi-specialty work, and so we’re in, in my firm, I, I do a lot of exhibition design and experience design. That’s what I write about. That’s what I podcast about. That’s what I’m sort of most known for, but coming up in the business, I did all the other things that you would think a traditional communication design person would do: branding and, uh, way finding and digital projects and print and all of that sort of stuff. So it was sort of a apprenticeship that felt a little bit more like learning how to run or learning how to do the decathlon rather than learning how to run the a hundred meter dash only.

Jonathan Alger: But you know, again, I’m not sure that that’s business advice I would give any, anyone today. Do not, do not set out to become a medium sized Swiss army knife.

Abigail Honor: I feel the exact same way. We don’t have an elevator pitch for what we do. Every time I meet a client, it’s really hard because when you are medium size, small to medium.

Abigail Honor: I think we’re probably a bit smaller than you guys and you’re trying to pitch what you do, but you have a depth or a multidisciplinary team that can actually do branding, do wayfinding, for example, experience design, um, you know, vr, ar, digital, whatever it is in your Swiss Army knife. It’s really hard to be able to pitch that to clients when they’re often just looking for one thing

Jonathan Alger: That’s right.

Abigail Honor: I’m always trying to say, what’s your problem and let us fix it. Don’t come to us for a set specific task. How are some of the challenges? As you mentioned, you have this rich team and they have a lot of things they can do. How do you see the next five years in terms of your business? Do you ever think, oh, we need to specialize.

Abigail Honor: It will be better to be one size fits all for people or like, what’s your perception on that?

Jonathan Alger: I have no idea. I’d like to be able to answer with a very fluid and cogent, uh, words to live by that people could whip their notebook out on and start scribbling away, but I don’t really, I don’t really have an answer for that.

Jonathan Alger: I think we’re maybe birds of a feather. Um, we’ve been around long enough that we’ve just got a pretty big portfolio in each one of those areas. So when a client comes to us with a particular specialty they want, we just show them that. Every once in a while we come across a client that needs, you know, pineapples, storm doors, and to be flown in an airplane and we can handle them as well.

Abigail Honor: So in terms of like CNG, you know, you’re very much known for a focus on cultural nonprofit work. What, why, why is it tell us like that special focus and why it’s important for you?

Jonathan Alger: Our firm, uh, CNG Partners is a descended firm and of another firm called, uh, Chermayeff & Geismar, and Chermayeff & Geismar is a, a sort of a original gangster, uh, formed in the fifties old school, New York graphic design firm. One of the firms that invented or popularized the term graphic design and was one of the very first firms ever to do exhibition design as a firm actually.

Jonathan Alger: And I just happened to luckily get an opportunity to work there and I, I started there as a junior designer and I left there as, as one of the principles of the firm, and then started this firm, which is a descendant. And that firm for whatever reason, and probably personal interest, et cetera, just didn’t do much commercial work, didn’t do much marketing, didn’t sell soap as we used to say.

Jonathan Alger: And so the firm that I now am the managing partner of and one of the owners of is following suit, and that started to refine itself even more when we created this firm 20 years ago. We started eventually, after five, 10 years in, we realized that 85, 90% of of our clients and our financial health was coming from the broadly defined cultural sector.

Jonathan Alger: And so we said, let’s just plant a flag. And not actively go after commercial projects as much.

Abigail Honor: Oh, that’s really interesting. Financially, was that a gamble?

Jonathan Alger: You know, like, I’m, I’m fond of saying like, nonprofit is a tax status, not a business goal. So, uh, well run nonprofits. We work with a lot of nonprofits, we work with a lot of government entities. We work with NGOs, et cetera. Let’s think about some nonprofits that we know well by name: Harvard, the Smithsonian, National Geographic. I don’t know, NASA, if you want to include government entities. These, I don’t think you’d think of any of those entities as being poorly funded. So I think something like 10% of the workforce in the United States works in the nonprofit sector writ large.

Jonathan Alger: And so it’s, it’s a good place to be. You can even be a niche within a niche, and that’s, that’s where we are doing arts and culture.

Brenda Cowan: So when I think about how it is that CNG brings voices, people, the human into your exhibition projects and how it is that, in my interpretation, it makes for very inclusive environments, it makes for, again, very human environments.

Brenda Cowan: And I’m curious to hear a little bit about how it is that you think or you approach projects with a human element in mind. Or is it the kind of thing that just sort of develops heuristically?

Jonathan Alger: There’s always been an issue with museums taking a stand and having a very firm opinion about something. In some cases, it’s sort of incontrovertible.

Jonathan Alger: We are the Museum of Forks. Forks have tines and on the other end is a part where you hold them. Right? You can say that if you’re the museum of for, you’re the curator of the Museum of Forks. You can say things like that. But otherwise, we work with a lot of museums and museum-like entities that are a little bit uncomfortable with sort of taking a stand.

Jonathan Alger: So one of the, I don’t know, tricks or hacks or rules of thumb that, that we’ve stumbled on and and gone with is this idea of the personal testimony trick. The idea that, if we can get someone who’s maybe not a subject matter expert, they’re not an SME, they’re just somebody else who has lived experience or they’re adjacent to the subject, or they may not know everything about chemistry, but they work in a lab and we have them say what they feel about a subject, then that’s a great way for visitors to have a way in that’s a little bit more understandable to them.

Jonathan Alger: It’s also a great way for museums to avoid looking like there’s only one answer and that people are supposed to look to them for some kind of absolute truth. So that’s the sort of the personal testimony trick, and you can do that a number of ways. You can do that like we’re doing right now, recording something in audio.

Jonathan Alger: You can also do it in writing.

Brenda Cowan: I’m really curious as a leader, how it is that you effectively communicate or even educate clients about the work that you do. It’s a particular form of communication, um, I would suggest, and I’m really curious, how do you approach that?

Jonathan Alger: Yeah, I’d say I, some people refer to that as sort of, uh, consulting or educational consultative relationship with your clients. Other people refer to it as being long-winded and pedantic. I guess it, it depends on the, the situation, but I don’t mind at all trying to help clients understand every aspect of something that they might want to understand. Uh, and some people are like that, you know, on the show that I do, I just had a guest who is a specialist in museum display cases, and you can tell that she loves to explain that stuff to people, and that is stuff that really needs to be explained to people. And nine times out of 10, the clients that we’re working with are people who have never done this before. They may very well never do it again. They may decide never to do it again. Every once in a while they decide to do it again.

Jonathan Alger: But when you go in and you want to have your knee operated on, and there’s some people that are just like, hey, fix my knee, okay, knock me out, take care of it. But there are other people that said, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. What are my options? What’s entailed? I think you just have to do that.

Abigail Honor: Given what you’ve just said in terms of the education, if you have money and you need to build a museum, they automatically, the clients think, I need an architect. I keep finding us in situations where whenever we are brought in, the client has already made some decisions, like even buying hardware too early.

Jonathan Alger: Oh yeah. We get that all the time.

Abigail Honor: And it’s,

Jonathan Alger: Yeah, the, the AV salespeople got to them.

Jonathan Alger: They got to them.

Abigail Honor: Exactly. How do we,

Jonathan Alger: That’s a really big LED wall. It’s curving.

Abigail Honor: It’s exactly like that. Yeah. So how do we build a better understanding of our industry and how to work through these projects and our process with clients or build that awareness so they’re doing it in the right order at least?

Jonathan Alger: That’s a really, that’s a super question I’ve never really thought exactly about that, you know, we are, everyone around this table is sort of around the same table, right? We don’t have a client sitting in the fourth chair over there. So if I take your question correctly, it is, how can we make sure that before we show up, the clients know what it is that we’re gonna do and they’re starting to make the right decisions, et cetera.

Jonathan Alger: So, I don’t know, maybe, uh, you know, uh, SEGD, the Society for Experiential Graph Design has just started this new group, a professional, uh, practice group, uh, that is for people to do exhibition and experience design. Maybe we should focus one of the committees of that group on creating some kind of website or page at SEGD.org or literature or something that could somehow be distributed. You could use the, the sort of the power and the force of a larger organization, uh, and kind of do a got milk campaign. Like if we’re all dairy farmers, you could do a bit of a got milk campaign, not to, not to create demand for our bovine liquid, but to make the client sort of understand, you know, what, what the basic steps are.

Abigail Honor: Yeah. And who they need sitting around the table at the beginning.

Jonathan Alger: That’s a great idea. I’m gonna go do that right now. I’m gonna leave,

Brenda Cowan: I would suggest that you’re already underway with doing this, or at least into, into begin our segue actually into talking about making the museum, part of what I see happening is you making a very substantial contribution to providing everyone and certainly, you know, prospective clients or existing clients with a vocabulary, with an understanding of the tools, the techniques, and understanding the functions and the possibilities of, you know, what I think of as a very kaleidoscopic profession. And I’m curious, was that your intention or do you see yourself doing that? Because from the outside, it seems that that is a huge part of your outcomes.

Jonathan Alger: So making the museum, shameless plug. You can look at makingthemuseum.com, dear Listener, is both a podcast, which is attempting to be as good as the podcast that I’m on right now, but is falling very short.

Brenda Cowan: Au contraire.

Jonathan Alger: But is also a newsletter. It started out as a newsletter. I was writing five very short one minute read, uh, newsletters per week and now it’s three times a week by popular demand or popular un-demand. And that started, uh, two ways. One was sort of a selfish way. I’d, I’d had a lifelong dream to attempt to get over my absolutely fundamental terror of writing, uh, in public, uh, doing something where it wasn’t just business emails, but something where I was purely writing and I was asking people to look at my writing.

Jonathan Alger: I, I, I went through school, uh, with a whole bunch of friends who are, you know, writers for a, for a business, and I always thought that that was great, and I thought that I, I couldn’t do it. I tried and it was terrible, and I wanted to tackle that monster. And so I did that and I took courses and yada yada.

Jonathan Alger: And the other thing was this thing that people do is a small community. Even if you were to say, okay, all the people that do museum exhibition and let’s add all the people that do theme park work, let’s add them in and let’s add people who do themed retail and let’s add cruise ships and uh, visitor centers and alumni centers and zoos, you know, all of that.

Jonathan Alger: Even if we brought all of those people together, it’d still be a fairly small number. So, back to architects, last time I checked, there was like 80,000. There’s probably 120,000 members of the AIA right now. But SEGD itself has what, 2000. So it’s a relatively small group, and that means that there isn’t a critical mass adequate to generate a, uh, criticism, uh, textual communication. There isn’t writing in the field per se, except here and there. And the other gap is professional development, that there isn’t a way that you can get up in the morning and have a cup of coffee and get your one word a day calendar about your profession. Or, you know, every month you take a little continuing education unit or something and it’s like, ooh, storm drain flashing great.

Jonathan Alger: You know? And I just felt that, uh, I could combine those two things. I can combine that interest in writing, the fact that I’ve been doing it for a number of years, and I can share what I’ve learned.

Abigail Honor: One of the things I just wanna pick on what you said, Jonathan, is you had a need to write. You didn’t feel comfortable writing, and you forced yourself through that discomfort to achieve the goal that was pushing you forwards.

Abigail Honor: But only from doing that and facing those fears and facing those obstacles and overcoming do you ever accomplish anything? So unfortunately, in order to accomplish anything, you have to go through the, through the quagmire and put yourself in an uncomfortable situation to get the other side.

Jonathan Alger: Uh, Abby, you’re uh, totally right.

Jonathan Alger: I think that there’s this big realm of discomfort that you have to aim for. I’ve done projects with clients, some of my client work has been insanely uncomfortable for me. Things we’re, we’re working with a client group that I don’t think I have anything in common with, I don’t agree with in some ways. I agree with the project they’re doing, but there’s something else about, uh, who they are that may be on a personal basis I wouldn’t agree with.

Jonathan Alger: And the thing that I find all the time is once you get through this sort of weird more Mordor on the other side, you’re like: What? That wasn’t Mordor at all. Who has so worried about that zone of discomfort turns out in retrospect, looking back at it to be wonderful. I’ve had clients that I thought were gonna be just, I, I don’t, I don’t know how we’re gonna get through this.

Jonathan Alger: And you kind of figure it out. And after the first meeting, everybody is like, you know, going out to lunch together individually, you are like, what?

Abigail Honor: Yeah, I completely agree. Completely agree. And also dealing in the moment that it’s not comfortable with the job where you’ve overreached somewhere or you feel you may be overreaching or you’re not all on the same page, whatever the challenge is, learning to deal with the stress of that is something that I’m constantly challenged with.

Brenda Cowan: Well, this is something, uh, we had, uh, on a recent podcast, Sarana Pringle from Yale who does studies and research in creativity and emotional intelligence. And this was a piece of what she was talking about and what she studies, which is for the creative person, and I would say for a creative leader as well, being able to enter into discomfort and being able to manage not knowing. How this is going to turn out or where this is going to go is an enormous skill and it’s something that you have as a significant tool in your toolbox.

Jonathan Alger: Yeah, I think that’s often the case when you’re, when you’re an entrepreneur, you’re a business leader, or you’re a partner in a firm, or you’re trying to, uh, negotiate any kind of new possibility. It’s highly likely that some aspect of what you’re being asked to do is something that you currently are not a master of, and it simply doesn’t work that you would attempt to become a master of the thing in advance and then seek out somebody because all of the engagements are unique. They’re all one-offs, right? They’re all very individual. We just finished a project for. It’s an interactive university project at a lab of Ornithology where the, the median visitor is a 62-year-old, uh, white female with expensive binoculars. If I had attempted to become the master of that before we began that, I don’t know, I’d have a very long gray beard and then they would’ve chosen somebody else. So you have to be willing to knit the parachute on the way down a little bit. You, you have to be confident that you can do it. You have to have a, a record of having done that many times. Before to be confident, like, sure, I can jump out the plane.

Abigail Honor: Mm-hmm. What about fear of failure? Do you think some of the motivation is because you’re like, I’m not gonna fail. I cannot fail. Or how do you deal with failure? Because we all fail. Right? You fail forward. That’s how you learn. That’s how you grow. I’m a big believer in failure, so how do you deal with it?

Jonathan Alger: I like it. I’m gonna, I’m gonna make a mug. I’m a big believer in failure. I like that. Yeah. You have to acknowledge that you will have a failure, but. You have to make the right bets, right? Everything is thinking in bets, so there are situations where you’re guaranteed to fail. Take on situations like that deliberately and for a specific reason. Otherwise, try to find situations where you could possibly not fail and just do everything you can to not fail.

Abigail Honor: It’s a delicate balance though, right? Because as you are boldly going where you haven’t gone before, trying something new or part new, there is still probably, if we were betting people, a percentage of failure always.

Jonathan Alger: Right, and you do fail. You do fail. That’s, that’s for sure. You get more points for, you know, most improved player is sort of more impressive than player who yet again, one player of the year.

Brenda Cowan: Well, you’re never starting from zero after you have gone for something you’ve attempted, something, you fail, and when you go again, you’re not starting from zero. And I think that that is a reality, and it’s also a mindset that can really, you know, it’s like an abundance mindset. It really enables you, I would suggest, to be able to build the skill and to perhaps end up mastering. Whatever the case might be.

Abigail Honor: Yesterday, we did a pitch for a big commercial campaign and we made the images in ai. We brought them to life in ai and these were science images and technology images, and so we basically made a video in four hours. We got the job simply because we just outworked everyone in this four hours and made what looked like you. The client could see the spots, right? We gave them that wet their appetite. And so I’m sort of shocked at how quickly it’s going and I just wondered how you felt about it because we are already seeing clients using it.

Abigail Honor: So if we are not doing it, they’ll come to the table and show us what, well, last night we did this and so we have to keep up with our clients now. Because you get a client who happens to be, have a creative director who’s very techie and suddenly we can’t be outworked by them. So I just wondered what your, we’re in a frenetic race to keep up with AI and to see how we can use it effectively, and I just wondered what your thinking was on it all.

Jonathan Alger: Yeah, I, I think that, uh, you know, the advances in AI are not evenly distributed. Mm-hmm. It’s not a, it’s not a yeah’s kind of a linear way that’s moving up the beech tsunami that’s coming towards our island or whatever. It’s, I don’t know. It’s, it’s an army where some of the phalanx are further ahead than the other ones or something.

Jonathan Alger: But in, in what we do when we’re trying to work on a physical space, it’s a complex, unique, three-dimensional puzzle. In, um, a situation like that, there is no way that AI can solve the problem for you. Uh, once you’ve solved it, AI could, you know, render up something similar. Uh, in the early days of Dall-E and Midjourney.

Jonathan Alger: I said, you know, Dall-E, hey, I’m gonna experiment with you. I’d like to you to make me, uh, an uh, photographic realistic image of a young woman in a sundress in a museum looking at a sword that’s in a vitrine. And the results were absolutely laughable. So the more specific in the early days right now for ai, the more specific that you want to get, the less joy you’re gonna have and things that are already well chewed and masticated by the computers of the internet where there’s already ample material to learn on. You’ll be able to do something like that. So if I were to say, Hey, AI, give me a picture of a multicultural group of preppy kids drinking sodas. Boy, I could get some great stuff for that. But if I were to say like, give me an image of a really cool concept for an exhibit that’s about, uh, shepherding in Iceland. It’s gonna, it’s gonna balk.

Abigail Honor: Yep. Last question. Advice to young exhibit designers?

Jonathan Alger: I would say in, it depends. If you would like to make yourself indispensable and get a well-rounded, a little bit of everything, kind of an experience to go work at a firm that is looking for that. You should go sign up for Brenda’s program. If you would like to work for a firm like mine and there aren’t many or like yours, Abby, there, there’s maybe 20, 25 firms like ours in the entire country. If you wanna work for a firm like that, it’s a little bit more of a mercenary outlook. And for people like that, I would recommend, uh, that you should, first, you should become a T-shaped person. You should get a very broad understanding, but there should be one thing that you’re very deep in. And, um, that, that might be architecture. We have our, um, our head, our most senior staff member in 3D design has two degrees in architecture.

Jonathan Alger: So, uh, and you know, likewise with graphic design, uh, likewise with media, et cetera. So, um, when people are hiring us and they, they need to get the job done well, and they need to get it done quickly, et cetera, that’s, that’s the kind of, um, talent pool that we’re, that we’re looking for.

Abigail Honor: Well, Jonathan, thank you so much for joining us. This was really, really interesting and entertaining. And yeah, everybody check out MTM. It’s a fantastic podcast.

Brenda Cowan: It really is.

Abigail Honor: Podcast. Absolutely. Essential. Essential, I think.

Jonathan Alger: Aw, I like that word. Yeah.

Abigail Honor: So, um, yeah, thank you and thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience and make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend.

Abigail Honor: We’ll see you next time.

Engineer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lauren Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

Murilo Melo

HERSHE

Grad in Black

New York Festivals Advertising Awards

[Music]

Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast that explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. If you’re new, a hearty welcome, and to our regular listeners, thank you for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.

Brenda: Hello, everyone. This is Brenda Cowan.

Abby: So today we’re chatting with Murilo Melo, who is the global head of design at Gut. He has over 20 years of experience working at agencies like Leo Burnett, Publicis Brazil, and Havas. He’s worked on iconic projects for clients like Coca-Cola, Netflix, Google and Hershey: I’m not a huge fan of the taste of that chocolate, but what I do like was the HERSHE campaign for International Women’s Day, where you showcased female artists of all types on the packaging and across digital.

It was absolutely beautiful and told our story really, really effectively. And you’ve also won awards like such a long list of awards, top national, international festivals like Cannes Lions, D&AD, Effie, One Show, Clio, the list goes on. And now your career is most definitely climaxing as you join my design jury at New York Festival Advertising Awards this year, as we have the opportunity to review and award the top talent in design experience design for the past year, which we’re going to talk about later. Murilo, welcome to the show.

Murilo: Thank you so much, Abigail. Thank you, Brenda. And after this introduction, I might call you for every meeting I do with my team.

Abby: We’re available. We’re available. I’ve never been to Brazil. I’m right there.

Brenda: Oh my gosh. And I’m right there with you. And what is so delightful is that you make it very easy for us to be very enthusiastic about your work and what you do and where you’ve been. I’d love to dive in and get us kickstarted with thinking about what it’s like to design for iconic brands, iconic brands that are household names around the world, and even through your design work, how it is that you’re at once thinking on a massive scale, right, globally, but also about everyday people, everyday lives. Can you tell us about how you craft messages, how you craft experiences that work for the whole world, so to speak, and yet resonate with just individual people? The human scale.

Murilo: Yeah, this, this Brenda, is a challenge because these brands, most of these brands we are talking about, they are loved brands and people love brands, people connect with the brands, they talk about it, they’re reacting to their social media. So, when you’re working with these kind of major brands around the world, it is a responsibility to know what to do. But also the payoff is amazing because of course you have great minds at the brand side, from the marketing team, from the, even the design team inside the companies, and I feel this is important. I’m super respectful for what the relationship between brands and people, and the goal is always to be impactful in a good way, because people, people get it, you know, when you’re pushing too hard or when it’s not related and you’re just doing something to call the attention. So, what I try to do, and I think it really works, is to be true to the brand and to the consumers.

Abby: That’s really interesting.

Brenda: What does it look like to be true to the consumer? Like, is there a way of thinking about the person so that we can resonate with, you know, the brand with them? Is there a particular like headspace that you get into, or is there a method?

Murilo: I don’t think there’s an established method, but I think it’s something related to, deliver to the people what the brand has to give, because sometimes we see some, some brands, or some communication pushing so hard into a direction that the brand does not represent. They don’t have that commitment inside of their marketing team. And then it sounds fake, you know. So, I think it’s, it’s a kind of a respectful thing. And I think brands are more—they are more aware of this nowadays. We lived at a time, a recent period that anything was worth it to say if it looked good for the brands. And people are not buying that anymore and brands are taking more care. I think it’s something that the market is more mature about, which is great.

Abby: But how do you like, in, like taking Hershey or Coca-Cola, I know a lot of people enjoy Hershey, lots of people enjoy Coca-Cola. How are you putting yourself in the mind’s eye of the consumer? Do you look on social? Are you seeing the way they talk about the brand, what they like about the brand? How is it that you know how to successfully address that consumer? Words to use, visuals to choose, or concept to make the campaign about? Do you know what I mean? Because you’re over there, you’re in Brazil, you may or may not like the brand you’re working for. So how do you bridge that gap?

Murilo: Yeah, for example, the Hershey’s campaign, HERSHE, it all started with the finding that on the name and in the packaging, you have “her,” and you have “she,” which is nice, a nice finding, and we are all excited about that. But we’re like, what are we doing with this? Like, are we just saying, hey, there’s “her” and “she,” here, congratulate woman. Well, I don’t think that’s enough. But that’s kind of what I was saying before, like why, why are you saying that?

Then we took a step further and say, hey, we should elevate women, her, artists, she writes, her poems, her paintings, and then bring the community in. And like I was saying, inside the company at the time we worked on this project, there was, a department that was, the leadership was filled, I mean, majority of the leadership was women. So, it was all true to the brand, but it came to the consumers to be part of that. And the initiative really worked because it has a large scale of showing the artists and making a gallery and exporting the idea to many countries. And the community got excited because we can, you can do these kind of things, and the community refuses, and that’s okay, it’s part of the job. But it was interesting for everyone. So, I think when we got into that place, we said, well, we are actually doing something relevant, influential, and not only communication or advertising, you know.

Brenda: Yeah, it was a dialogue.

Murilo: Yes.

Abby: When you think about design, it can mean a lot of things. It’s a huge umbrella, right? There’s visual and communication design, digital and user experience design, UX, product industrial design, environmental experiential design, marketing, advertising design, fashion design, spatial design. So, talk to us about what your focus is or what types of design you’re drawn to in your sort of everyday life, so not necessarily what you put out, but what influences you.

Murilo: Yeah, sure, and design is everywhere, is in everything. And that is hard for us that are obsessed about design because it’s like, where do I look? So, I mean, I live in a constant, like, overwhelming about everything that is being done, especially now that we have access to everything throughout social media. And it’s too much, actually, because it’s too much good stuff that you see, interesting stuff and it’s hard to follow everything.

But what really caught my attention and what I like, I love the most when I talk about design and talking about the day by day, is when I see design connected to creativity. And it could sound redundant because it is a creative expression. But when design is connected to a creative purpose or something behind it, I think it’s, it elevates the creativity and the creativity, it’s really beneficiated by design.

I’ve been seeing a lot of luxury brands on social media, and they’re working so well with design, and animation, and kind of unusual things visually. And this is, is more interesting for me at least, than what we saw in the past that was kind of a blasé thing, something more distant. So, I mean, it’s a random example, but I think creativity elevates design, and since my day-by-day work is—I have a design studio inside of an advertising agency, right? So, my sweet spot in curiosity in my heart is between this connection: design and creativity coming to impact and to amuse people.

Brenda: We had a wonderful conversation a while ago with Zorana Pringle, who is an expert in creativity. She does research at Yale, and I really appreciate listening to you talk about creativity right now and its relationship with design and also thinking about how it is that creativity is kind of like a muscle that we exercise, and it sounds like, you know, when you talk about imagination, when you talk about inspiration, when you talk about creativity, you very much so are bringing a lot of that, you know, that muscle to the table, if you will, which certainly must make a big difference, or at least it seems to result in some pretty remarkable projects.

So, thinking about some remarkable projects, one of the things that I was really curious about was about pitching to clients. And I’m curious when you know that you truly have something special to share, what’s it like when you know that you’ve really created this amazing idea, and is there a trick to getting everybody else on board?

Murilo: That’s a good question, and I wish I had the trick answer, but I think it’s deeper than that because it’s a construction. In the past, I think designers from, especially from this environment, advertising, creativity, branding, they were often seen as finishers of an idea, right, like executing, developed the concept, so let’s put the design team now that things are coming right. And this perception is shifting. For me, it already shifted completely. So, designers are no longer just problem solvers, they are problem definers. So, they help shape conversation before a single visual idea is created, and this is where I think is the heart of the, the thing when you want to, let’s call it sell a design piece. You got to show the relevance before because it’s a business decision because it’s important for the brand to create value. And then I show you the idea of how doing that. And it’s not just like, being a showman, a showwoman in presenting, but about making the client realize how important the design is for its brand or its projects.

Abby: I have a quick, quick sort of build on to that because we’ve had some experiences where we’ve pitched something, a concept, and the client initially has loved it, and then over successive meetings, or it even could be the next one, something internally shifted and the feedbacks almost gets 180ed. Has that ever happened to you, when client feedback has started off really onboard to an idea and sort of got watered down, maybe somehow.

Brenda: Something got lost in the process.

Murilo: Yeah, yeah, this is really frequent because the clients, they have more complex structures nowadays, like I think before it was one-on-one, just a team of decision makers and now the big clients, they have a whole marketing team, a lot of layers, and we work with something that is kind of subjective. We sell like ideas and there is risk on that.

That’s why I think the most important thing is to push courage from the clients. It is brave to approve something that has not been done, or that’s kind of not what the brand has always worked on. And we at Gut, we have a methodology which is amazing, which is the bravery scale. We bring clients in and we say, hey, let’s look at the bravery scale, from 1 to 10, and we talk about what is being 10, brave, like living like there’s no tomorrow. And 1 is like, hey, I don’t know if I should. And there are a lot of steps on this bravery scale. And maybe the thing on some projects is to go from 2 to 3, which is amazing. It’s incredible. It’s not being like; I’m going to throw the papers and put my job in risk. No, it’s something, it’s one thing that’s going to maybe be rewarded and then you’re going to jump more. It’s going to make you feel secure and more brave. So, it’s this kind of thing we talk about this with the clients and it sometimes works.

Brenda: That’s such a beautiful answer.

Abby: Yeah, what a great idea as well to get people on board with where they’re coming from, because a lot of our guests talk about boards, if we’re creating exhibitions for museums and lots of different stakeholders, as you mentioned, often 50 up to 100 different stakeholders, all with different appetites for risk, all perceiving the job to be done with different risks involved and wanting to, as you just mentioned, move the needle. So, it’s a really great method that you’ve just described for making sure that at least from your perspective, as the agency, you understand where the client’s risk adversity lies or bravery lies. I think that’s fantastic.

Brenda: It is good. And also, I would imagine that your, your awareness of the consumer and, some of those sort of emotional connections that people have with the products, with the brands makes a big difference.

Murilo: It’s super does, and we live in a world that it’s possible to test and learn faster. You can try with a small group, you can try it on social media and see how, how is the appetite of people, if the client is a low score on the brave scale, it is a way to start, like, let’s push the tone a little bit and try this with this group. Well, it’s a good reaction. Let’s amplify. Can we scale that? And when we scale that the bravery will be rewarded. And if it is rewarded, it is something that it’s inspiring. Colleagues, the juniors of the team will say, hey, you look what he did, he, it was risky, and it was worth it. I mean, I’m talking like a dreamer because I believe in this. I think this really works.

Abby: Do you think that being a dreamer, like you’re obviously great, very personable, I would imagine fantastic with clients, very articulate. You just mentioned juniors. Can you teach what you have?

Murilo: Well, I think it’s about trust, intimacy. It’s like everything in life when we are, like, you have to make an impression, you are not yourself, and when you’re not yourself, things sound kind of fake. If you don’t connect, you don’t convince anyone of anything, you know, and that’s not quite easy, because sometimes from the client side or even from inside our team, people are not that open. And how to open their, their hearts and their conversation, and to make this, it’s this kind of soft skill, let’s call it, like that, that I think the world, the world is given so much credit for. Because technically, with all we are seeing the AI things and everything, we are reaching a high level of technical capabilities. But the emotional one, I think that’s the key for these kind of things, you know.

Brenda: The pace at which new design tools are being created have sped up projects, and I’m really curious about whether in your experiences, whether or not expectations have shifted in terms of how like rapidly teams are developing and implementing design work. How do you stay so thoughtful? How do you stay so true to the richness of what it is that you’re creating in an industry that seems to be moving increasingly faster?

Murilo: It is a paradox because it saves us time, but for us to use it and save us time, we have to invest time to learn. But I think we have to find room to, to breathe, to absorb and to use it and to move it to the next round because it’s a cause of a lot of anxiety. I’m really anxious because when we are working and doing great work and I see something coming out and say, hey, should I have worked less on this project to dedicate time for me and my team to learn that? Because this is the future and if you go into that direction, I mean, I don’t know if we can survive. It’s too much. So, I would, I would take a breath and focus on the work. Stay curious, of course, it’s like, it’s essential for our, has always been for our profession, but at least for me, I don’t see myself always working and producing and learning and testing new. I mean, we have to have space for stuff, you know, that’s at least my point of view.

Abby: Well, I think also with, with AI, when you’re making imagery, it’s a whole different way of being creative. So originally, we had pen to paper and it was one way of drawing something, and then you have your tablet and you have your pen, and now we have writing words to create images, which is a whole different mode of processing. And I’m sure if we had a scientist here, when it comes to the brain, like I’m, I’m much more a hold and do, a physical—and so now I’m typing words to articulate an image that I’m trying to get to. But it takes time, and it takes practice. We’re finding it still takes huge amounts of time to get exactly what you want. It takes no time to get something, it’s how well you can start working with it and collaborating with it.

Murilo: Yeah, there’s something kind of personal about this. I realized I have always loved notebooks and Moleskines and taking notes, and I realized, it was something that just came to me, that I was not using anymore. I had forgotten my notebooks, and I was searching already, I was thinking on the computer, so I went to Pinterest, to Google, maybe to ChatGPT, anything and was trying to—and then it came to me in December say, no, no, I have to get back to my notebook. And I bought a notebook, and it was game changer. I dedicate ten minutes, I don’t know, some time, thinking, writing, and then I use the machine and I’m trying to do this with the team, hey, hey, let’s, let’s be like AI-free, computer-free for a moment, and then we go—this step is magic, and it already made a lot of difference in my year.

Brenda: Oh, good for you.

Abby: I have a question for you, Brenda, about your students.

Brenda: Sure.

Abby: So, in a way, Murilo’s getting his team to slow down, and in answer to your observation that everything’s going faster, how do your students do that? Like how do we fight against the world we live in because everybody’s tempted to just go in and do the prompt, which is a—just get on with it, you know. When you’re talking with your students and guiding them through the world they’re about to go into, what is some advice you give them on how to slow down?

Brenda: What I’m able to do with my students is shape an understanding that we’re not fighting, necessarily, the world. The world is, you know, it is changing. It’s developing. It’s growing. The tools are there. They are faster. Ultimately, though, I have a bit of a privilege and I think the students have a bit of a luxury being in the classroom where I can say, we’re going to take a pause right now, and where the majority of the work that I do with them is paper and pencil and it’s, you know, kind of crazy and kind of messy and a little chaotic and very, very creative. And I think that learning that taking that pause, again, like, you know, we’re hearing right now, it’s just simply another tool. A pause is a tool, just like AI is a tool, just like paper and pencil are tools.

Murilo: Perfect, yes.

Brenda: So, what are like maybe 1 or 2 of the projects that you’re the most proud of?

Murilo: We did a project that was really meaningful for so many people. There’s this thing, this, this pain around the world. That is when people are going to graduate, the graduation caps, they are hard to fit into Black people hair. And then our team, which has Black people creating, executing the idea, which of course is their place to think about it, they came up with a solution, said, hey, why shouldn’t we find a designer and make some special graduation caps for all kinds of hairs? And then we said, well, this is amazing. This is a really human thing, and it’s an important moment. It’s about self-esteem, everything. And then we went to talk with a designer, a fashion designer, and he was amazed by the idea. He draw 4 or 5 caps for different kinds of curly hair. And then it was like, it was liquid, people and especially Black people that had passed these into their graduations that work here, they were so excited about the idea. And of course, we were excited too. And then we put it out in the world, and it was amazing. It was amazing. It was really emotional. And now we are actually having the caps into the graduation ceremonies and people are actually wearing them. So, I’m super proud of this, you know.

Brenda: Oh my God, this is amazing. This is, like literally, this is a problem in my own program and with my students when they graduate.

Murilo: It is Grad In Black, it’s called, the project. And we have an open source for these designs. So, the designers did, we have an open source, a PDF where you can just do it anywhere you want. It tells you how to, and it’s there.

Brenda: Amazing.

Abby: That’s incredible. Well, so that’s an example of design solving a big problem. Right? That is super rewarding. So, let’s talk about our design jury at New York Festival Advertising Awards. So, you’ll be joining a number of incredible jury members like Jonathan Alger from C&G and Monica Herman from Giant Spoon. So I’m excited to collaborate with Scott Rose, the president, to add sections in the design category that reflect our profession like experiential activations, branded environments, and exhibition design, as well as all the more traditional design entries, because one of the reasons Murilo, that, at least I and I believe Brenda, want to do our podcast is to really build awareness about what we do. And a lot of that is exhibition design, experience design. And so having those categories now under the design umbrella and be recognized for awards is incredibly important to all of the people making amazing work. So, what is it about these awards that are exciting for you?

Murilo: The jury will see much more work, creative work because the market is wider. The market is asking for more work. So, we are producing more design work, more relevant design work and it will be amazing to see. I’m actually really curious because I think this past year was game changer for design. So, I think it’s our opportunity to learn, the jury and anyone who applies the work. It is something good because people keep consuming, because people see what have beaten them or what they have beaten. So, it’s a time to study. In advertising and design, we don’t dedicate as much time to study as in medicine, for example. And I think the award shows, they have these, these possibility. Okay, let’s see the golds for New York Festival this year, what the jury said the golds are, where are the industry heading. So, it’s something about the future too, because a lot of these great minds coming together to this conclusion, it is something pointing to the future.

Brenda: That is so exciting. Murilo, I’m really hoping you can talk to us about something that you are very, currently, very passionate about. What is—and it could be anything, this is a big, wide open question, but what are you just really, really excited about working with right now?

Murilo: I’m trying to go deeper into the entertainment industry. We are doing a project for a rapper/singer in Brazil, and he has such an amazing concept for his album, and we are navigating through that, how to make content for a musician, and the first part was doing a graphic design, and it’s already amazing because you have to study the platforms, how it will look like in Spotify or Apple Music. But beyond that, how is the music industry communicating? Is it a long format? It is a video clip, it is not a video clip anymore, is something on TikTok. So, it’s like a reinvention and there are no answers for these questions, as every time is a new thing. Like Beyoncé comes with an album that talks about, I mean, all the legacy from the country music, and it’s something that is a decision. But Rosalía doing something in TikTok, that is making a performance of her whole live album, which is something that shook the industry. So, I’m really curious about that at this moment.

And I would expand the music thing to entertainment, like we are working for a project for Netflix and it’s a new series, it’s a title treatment, and then you have to deep dive on how the art direction and the design comes to life inside the series. How can we apply the logo or the, the attitude or the photography inside of the content? So, these are things that are on my radar right now, and I’m really trying to study and to learn about them.

Brenda: I don’t know, you know, I listen, I’m listening to you, and I just keep imagining that you think in a very kaleidoscopic way, like how it is that you are able to integrate so many different aspects of design, be curious about so many different kinds of things, and yet altogether you’re able to form a single message, a single image, perhaps a single idea.

Abby

This was really enjoyable. I love the way you described us as problem designers. I just love that. And that method of sort of when you’re pitching, showing the relevance to the client, whatever it is you’re pitching and creating that value and then showing the idea is just is it’s a great way to really ease in ideas that are out of the box. Murilo, thank you so much.

Brenda: What a pleasure talking to you.

Abby: Yeah, this was fantastic.

Murilo: It was really a special moment. Thank you.

Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you liked what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience, wherever you listen to podcasts. Make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.

Brenda: Thank you for joining us, everyone.

[Music]

Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp. and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

Monica Herman

Giant Spoon

29ROOMS — Monica Herman

SAMSUNG YOUNIVERSE — Monica Herman

ADIDAS FORUM CITY TAKEOVER — Monica Herman

UNBOTHERED WASH DAY — Monica Herman

HOUSE OF DRAGONS — Monica Herman

[Music]

Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience. My name is Abigail Honor.

Brenda: Hello, this is Brenda Cowan.

Abby: This podcast is produced by Lorem Ipsum, a multimedia experience design company headquartered in New York City, and our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. Hello to anybody listening for the first time, and welcome back to our regular listeners.

So today we’d like to welcome Monica Herman to the show, who currently works at Giant Spoon as their VP Executive Creative Director. Now, besides being responsible for the now pretty iconic House of Dragons second season promotion—which was awesome, and from my apartment I can see the Empire State Building, and there was suddenly this huge dragon creeping around the top and I was stoked, and like, “who is the genius behind this?”—and part of a fantastic integrated campaign across the city and around the world, Monica has also led experiential creative globally across Vice Media Group. And you were responsible for 29Rooms, which was another viral sensation, and you’ve got what, interestingly, both an architectural and agency background, which seems like really that sweet spot in so many ways right now. So, Monica, I’m excited to talk with you. Welcome to the show.

Monica: Thank you so much, Abigail and Brenda. I really appreciate you having me. I’ve known Brenda for years now, and I’ve been, it’s been such a pleasure visiting her class at FIT and just hearing all the great things she’s working on, and I’m so excited to talk to you both.

Brenda: We are really excited to have you, in part because you have such a breadth of areas of experience, exploration and expertise, and you’ve worn many different hats throughout your career thus far. And when I think about your work, I think about how it is that you always create with an eye for storytelling and creating epic experiences in different kinds of ways. So, we’re going to begin by just asking you about where your journey began. How did your creative world begin?

Monica: You know, it’s funny because I had parents, you know, who loved the arts, who encouraged me to do whatever. And I think, you know, I came to that very naturally. But I’d say the origin story starts with Sex and the City, which came out, I think, when I was like in sixth grade or eighth grade or somewhere around there. And I remember, like my rich friend had HBO, right, and like I would go over to their house and like when their parents weren’t watching, we would like, turn on Sex and the City, and like, my mind exploded, you know, I was like, this is New York City?! And like, the clothes and like the fantasy and it’s, it’s funny, you know, you watch it now and, you know, there’s 6000 ways it’s problematic, but for, you know, a 13-year-old in Michigan, I was like, must get there. Must do those things.

Brenda: I was just going to say, so were you like in like an urban setting or—

Monica: No.

Brenda: More of a suburb?

Monica: Small town.

Brenda: So, this was new in a whole variety of ways for you?

Monica: Yeah, it was, it was. And, you know, my mother’s family is from Chicago, so, you know, been going to the city, it wasn’t like I was on the farm, like seeing, you know, television for the first time. But just this idea that cities were just full of possibility and again, being a very aesthetically driven person, just really being blown away by this idea.

And of course, not just that, but any other cultural reference at the time where you just saw like the, like I said, the fashion and the architecture, and so I was very single minded sort of in that approach and I, I remember I think it was in like my, like a school play program in my, you know, senior year where I said, like, I wanted to be like Charlotte York. I wanted to go in art and business. Like, that sounded right to me. You know, I was like, yeah, that I get that.

Abby: So, yeah, what happened next?

Monica: Well, what happened next is I did get that art history degree at University of Michigan, and I came to the city actually planning, in all seriousness, to go into art business. And I had wanted to—I always knew I wanted a master’s degree, but I moved to the city, I graduated from undergrad, came to the city in 2008, which is when the economy crashed and I had gotten a job through some connections at a textile and rug gallery in Soho, which was like amazing.

So, working in Soho, you know, I was a gallerista, you know, I was at the front, and I was doing all those things. And, you know, I was watching the economy, like, collapse around me. Right? And quite literally, cause you’re in Soho, you’re just like seeing the streets empty out, you know, and people would come in and inquire about this and that, but no one’s buying, you know, $25,000 rugs in 2008. So, watching that experience and watching my boss, who had just recently started that business, sort of grapple with that, I got a little scared, you know, like, and it was okay, and I said, wow, like, I want a, I want a hard skill. Right? And I felt, you know, the luxury market, which is what art really is, you know, for if we’re getting into it didn’t seem like the right thing to go into at the time, especially because, you know, I didn’t necessarily have the connections to like, make it in that market.

So, I said, okay, hard skill, hard skill, how do I get one of those? And I remember—I swear, I don’t watch that much television, but maybe this is just younger, in my younger days—Project Runway was very popular. So now I’m Sex and City, Project Runway. I’m definitely gonna regret this podcast later. So, I said, like, maybe there’s something with fashion design. So, I looked up Parsons and I was super interested. But you know, they didn’t have a master. You had to get an undergrad, and I didn’t want to do that at the time, I knew I’d be doing this on my own with student loans, so there’s just a lot of factors there. And I came across a master’s program for architectural lighting, and I saw that, and I said, that, like, I want to do that. I don’t know what that is. It sounded great. I must do that. I ended up going to the dean because I had no portfolio. And I said, like, let me in, let me in. Please. So, he said, okay, go to summer school for architecture, which I did. And then I started my master’s in architectural lighting design, and then I ended up working in that field for two and a half years after grad school.

Abby: Wow. That’s amazing.

Brenda: No, it’s, you are exactly what I hope all of my graduate students would be like. You know, and actually, I think that they really are because so many of them, right, likewise, they come into the program, they’re just like, gimme, gimme, gimme. I want to get into this industry. I want to get into this business. I don’t even know exactly, entirely precisely what it is, but I know that I want it, and that’s such an important way to think. And I can actually see back to the original idea of, you know, the origin story. It makes sense that you have ended up or at this point in your career, doing things that are really innovative and really different and unexpected and really spectacular in a lot of ways.

Abby: How did you decide to sort of move over or include all of the experience design you’re now doing? So, what was that transition like and why did it happen?

Monica: So, I was really lucky. I ended up in an incredible architectural lighting agency, I would say the best in the world, the Office for Visual Interaction. And my main client was Zaha Hadid and I was working on—

Abby: Wait, your main client off the bat?

Monica: Yes, off the bat.

Abby: Wow.

Monica: Off the bat, that’s right. And so, you know, working on the Zaha work and traveling to Rabat and traveling to London and being under the tutelage of such incredible designers and the founders, Jean and Enrique, absolutely amazing. It was like going to boot camp.

Abby: How were you chosen? Why, why you?

Monica: You know, you’ll have to call Jean and Enrique and ask. But I do remember, I was lucky, I remember they came to see my thesis presentation. Maybe what they, they saw in my work, which, coming from liberal arts, I was so obsessed with sort of psychology and the human experience, and I remember, so there’s, there’s a tendency, I think, in some of those, theses that I’ve seen now over the years, because I go back to school, for people to, to really focus on sort of like tactical problem solving, and a lot of the themes come up again and again and they’re not bad. They’re ripe for, for discussion, whether it’s like, circadian rhythms or, you know, hospital lighting or all these things.

But I really came at it from what I saw as like a very sort of emotional, romantic, and I was, my thesis was about, you know, how lighting profoundly can influence people’s relationships in space, right, so if I’m having this conversation with you at this table and we’re under this fluorescent lighting, that sets the tone, if nothing else was changed except suddenly it’s just me, you and a candle between us, like, everything’s different. Just, just by changing that. And I, you know, I found that subject so fascinating, and I think it was, it was different, and they respected that.

So, back to your question, which was okay, but then how did I go from that to, to leaving that. And I think it speaks to okay, I was with the best in the industry. I was, I was working on the best architect in the world. I was working on the most exciting projects, and I wasn’t fundamentally happy. And I don’t know, happiness, if you want to say it that way, but there was something that, I think, about the field was potentially at odds with my personality or the kind of things that drive me, which has to do with probably my worst trait, which is like impatience.

And I think to be a successful architect, and you could, I’m sure other people would argue differently, you know, you—patience is really a key virtue. And when I spoke to the really passionate architects, you know, on Zaha’s side, the way they spoke about their work and the idea of legacy and leaving something behind and their dedication to seeing something through with decades, you know, I’m sitting across the table and being like, that’s so cool. I don’t feel that at all. Like I just, I didn’t feel that way.

And so, I was sort of fixated on this idea, like, what is this? How could I possibly be bored in this field that’s fundamentally unboring? But to me, who just, like, wants to keep moving on and trying new things like, I don’t know that I have it in me to really sort of dive in for that decades long, which is what the projects deserve, and which is incredible. I wish I was that person.

Abby: Is it the legacy part that you weren’t—like if they’re doing these ten-year projects so that they can leave a legacy and the building will stand, is the projects you do now, one, bam, they’re done. You are leaving a legacy of the work that you’ve, I mean incredible work, your portfolio, but a different sort of legacy I guess, not one that people can go and physically enjoy. So, do you think about your legacy in your work right now?

Monica: No, I think about my legacy in my personal relationships, and I actually think, so that’s one of the things that gives me the freedom to enjoy my job is that I take my work very seriously, and I am so dedicated to and I have so much gratitude. But it’s a cliche to say, like, we’re not, you know, curing cancer, but it’s a cliche for a reason. You have to approach work that way where it’s, you know, your, you kind of say like, this is fundamentally, it’s a non-necessary thing, that it’s just a joy to create. So yeah. So, I’ve never felt that. I feel very motivated by my career. I love to work. I feel lucky to work. I’m ambitious, but I’ve never felt like I must leave my mark on the world. I’d love to. I mean, I love reading, so I get so jealous of novelists, you know, and I wish that was me, but since it’s not and when I look at that, I’ve never felt like, oh, that’s the thing I need to leave behind.

Brenda: You strike me as a very highly present person, and a person who’s really all in, in the moment and being creative and really thinking through what it is that you’re doing and being creative. And it just seems to me that working like that, you know, whether it leaves a legacy or not, who cares? We’re in the moment, we’re making something cool as shit, right?

Abby: But she’s making—you are, Monica, communicating with people because you’re making memories and moments for others which leave an indelible mark, and they’ll remember forever and ever. Like when you think about Sex and the City and that little relevance that it played to you in moving to New York City, when you see some of or encounter some of the projects that you’ve worked on, I mean, they really connect with people, and I think that they’ve built those people’s memories and people hopefully will be inspired in whatever it is they do after being immersed in some of the amazing things that you’ve created, that I know we’re going to go on to talk about. So, I think that you’re, the way you are and who you are is very much reflected in the type of work you do.

Brenda: I think that there’s a big difference between doing creative work because it’s what you want to do, and it’s where you are, and it’s the headspace that you’re in. There’s a difference between just doing the work and/or protecting your brand, so to speak. And I think that that makes for really different kinds of projects, if I were to guess.

Abby: And then moving to your projects, so you work physically, digitally, conceptually, and all of your work really connects people together in very powerful, playful and even I would say introspective ways. So, I’m thinking about the Samsung YOUniverse (y-o-universe to those listening) Experience, the Adidas City Takeover that you did, and Unbothered Wash Day. So, you’ve done a ton of different projects for brands and messaged in ways that really reach out to participants in meaningful and personal ways. So, tell us about some of your projects where you think the story really was evergreen or archetypal and connected with people in fundamental ways?

Monica: Well, let’s talk about Unbothered Wash Day. So, this was a virtual event—that cursed phrase, virtual event. But this happened in January, I believe, of 2021, right, so right in the thick of the pandemic. I was working at Vice at the time, and Unbothered was a Refinery29 subbrand focused on our Black female audience. And there had been success editorially with a column called Wash Day that focused on ritual and haircare, and the idea of that sort of time of week where our Black female audience was doing, sort of, wash day, doing hair. And there was so much talk around that, and there was so much online community forming. How can we celebrate that community and kind of make it bigger than people’s personal routines, but find a way to really celebrate that culture with the audience?

So actually, kind of inviting everyone to a shared wash day in which we had creators come in to talk about self-care and talk about what self-care meant for our, the community of readers in that time in the pandemic, I mean everything from sort of products to mental health to, all of that coming together. So, I think doing that at the time and just creating that space and sort of more literalizing the idea of a community coming together for a virtual event versus sort of just everyone sharing stories. You actually got to be live and talk face to face and sort of share your experience or meet some of the creators you were interested in. So that was great. And I remember we won an award for that. It felt like a gift. Right? You’re not, you weren’t sitting there saying like, oh, we want you to do this, or we have a message to you. It just felt like we were actually giving something to, to the audience who at that time, it was something to do when no one could do anything and just, a way of sharing experience during a really complicated time.

Brenda: I’ve got like so many thousands of thoughts and responses now and what I love about listening to you talk about Unbothered Wash Day, right, is that you talk about it, from the perspective and for the perspective of the audience, right, it’s all about the audience. It’s all about the person who’s going to engage, who’s going to get something out of it.

It’s not about your personal brand, right, and it’s probably why you’re able to work with so much speed is if you take that, if you’re taking that approach, are you taking that approach like with every project, like do you, you know, start with, okay, the end user and where are they coming from? Who are they? What do they want? What are their expectations? What are they desiring, you know, and then how do we craft towards that?

Abby: I’m going to build on that just for a second and say, yeah, like how do the projects come to you? Are they, help we need, this is our problem as a brand, you know, this is our community, like how is the process of the way the jobs come in and then how’s the process of the way that you’re ideating and who for, the client or the customer?

Monica: Well, first of all, it’s always for both, right? So, it’s not binary. And that’s a great, but it’s a great task to say that is it for the client or the, or the customer. You do start with the business problem, right, and that’s, that’s what we’re in, right, like we’re not there just to do cool things because it’s cool.

We’re there because we’re addressing something, whether that’s awareness, no one’s ever heard of this brand or perception, it’s maybe a big box brand that wants to look cool and culturally relevant. You’re really thinking about kind of, what is it this business needs to sort of accomplish, you know, it’s viewership, it’s sales, it’s whatever, and you, you start there and we’ve got strategists who come in and they, and they come up with that approach and you sort of figure out what it is that you’re trying to say. And then this is really, really important. And we can talk about this when we get into House of the Dragon or something else, you then craft the medium coming out of that, right, so you never if you’re, you know, you don’t approach it being like, okay, we’re going to do a screening, we’re going to do a pop-up. You can, but that’s not the work I’m interested in doing now.

So, it’s like, and I’m talking about this in the ideal state, right. So it’s identifying that and it’s identifying for me a hook, right, and I think like one of the things that is, can be a pitfall both for creatives and for brands is this desire to accomplish or say, every single thing you’ve ever felt about sort of your brand, you know, through the lens of like an experience or something like that. And I get that impulse, like I really, I sympathize with, I empathize with it, you know, so my job is to sort of guide people away from that because I’m like, you know, let’s take, for example, a television show, right? You know, you’re like, I don’t need to recreate the story that your show does that, my job is to not take that and then replicate it out in the world. My job is to just get people excited and wanting to learn more, wanting to do that next step.

Brenda: Well, this is, I mean, it’s the perfect timing to just have you talk about House of Dragon. You know, I’m excited and just want to sort of introduce the question by talking about the physicality of House of Dragon, that campaign, which I, I think it was mind boggling in just the best possible way, and not just because of all of the various media elements, but because, you know, there were so many physical, you know, monumental physical attributes to it.

And, you know, maybe it’s just like a personal thing for me or whatever, but there’s something about taking over the Manhattan Bridge, the Empire State Building, the Brooklyn Bridge, right, and seeing that and driving past that every single day or walking down the block from it. And it would be wonderful for you just to share with our listeners, how did you come to those, and if you would just describe a little bit about what the physicality was, in particular?

Monica: We had done House of Dragon Promotion season one, and in that, you know, HBO had come to us and they’re so smart, like, our clients at HBO are great marketers. So, they knew sort of for season one that they wanted to reach the sort of all existing fan base first, people who love Game of Thrones, bring people into the world of the show.

So, when we did that, we created an immersive experience at Comic-Con. It was a standalone recreation of the Red Keep, in which we invited fans to actually line up and experience hatching a dragon for themselves, right, so it was very theatrical. There were literally actors there, you know, you are recreating sets in some ways and bringing this to life and tapping into that, like true fantasy element for people who already were sort of invested in that, or we knew we could kind of reignite that.

Now, season two, right? They’ve got a foothold and now they want to go big. So right, I said season one, we bring people into the world of the show, season two, we brought the world of the show into our world, and we’re doing that in service of what they had asked us to do, which was kind of tease the narrative structure of season two, which is that basically there’s two warring factions, right? You have two, kind of, competing queens, you have a green council and a black council, and the whole sort of, all of season two is built around the idea that all must choose, right, and like there are two sides, everyone must choose them. Like everyone’s going down, but they’re going to go down fighting and there’s sort of no middle ground.

So, in doing that, you know, we’re like, okay, but how you do that, I’m not going to get there and I’m not going to make a billboard experience that’s like, so Queen Rhaenyra did this and Queen Alicent did this, and this is why she—no one gives a shit, right? I’m going to lose people right away. But if I can tap into, if we can tap into people’s sort of existing affinities that you’re already familiar with: Mets versus Yankees, this bagel shop versus that bagel shop, your competing housewives, you know, whatever it is that you already—everyone loves competition and rivalry, you know, whatever that is. If we can find a way to bridge those affiliations suddenly without doing anything at all, we’ve got you, right, and this was a multifaceted campaign.

So, you mentioned The Dragon. That was a big stunt. And then we made it really, really simple, right? You know, it is just kind of like green, black, green, black, all must choose, and these inciting messages. So, it was this combination of meeting people where they are and doing it in a very simple and visually ownable way, right, so just saying like green and black banners like, that’s it. And that’s one of the things you’ve got to really think about is, you know, what is the ownable sort of visual symbol for the show.

Brenda: Why do you consider season two House the Dragon, one of your best, your very best projects?

Monica: Yes. I love it in its simplicity, and I love that it defies categorization in some point. So, I’m very careful, like people say it’s an experiential campaign, I’m like, no it was not. It was a 360 integrated campaign. It’s not a, you know, whatever you want to say about it, it wasn’t, it was totally unique in that respect. So, they didn’t come to us and say, okay, we want necessarily a massive stunt. They just said, what is the best way to get people to raise their banners? World’s your oyster, any canvas you can think of. So that was competing trailers on YouTube. That was the sports partnerships, like I said, we did do the bar nights of sort of competing cocktail bars that, you know, different places in Manhattan, you know, competing pizza spots to the stunt to that—

So, it’s like when you. when you really look at the breadth of all the ways we brought that message to life and showing that that simple concept of just sort of assigning allegiances, right, is infinitely scalable. We just, we went wild and that was very fun. So that’s, that’s what’s interesting to me. I’m always looking to build, to break medium.

You know, we could talk about this idea of like, what experiences, you know, are or can be, and I think the idea of pushing medium and it’s not always like a pop-up, there’s not always, you know, 6 to 100 pallets of plywood, you know, in a built thing going into this, it really can be everything from a social experience to the sort of shared awe that comes when, you know, all these millions of people in the city walk out and they’re on their commute and they see a dragon on the Empire State Building, and I’m getting texts from people I haven’t heard from years, like, oh, I work on 27th Street, and we looked out and we could see it. So that was really sort of incredible. And I think the one other point you brought up was that mix, and you said this of what was real.

And Brenda, you asked about, you said physicality, what was real and what was not real, you know, what was CGI. And that was very important to us too. And we knew, like, okay, we wanted to do some things or show up in places we know we’d never get the permits for, even though if anyone can get permits, it’s Giant Spoon, but we knew if we went like pure CGI, like it wouldn’t land, right? So, what we needed to do is actually mess with people, right? And not in a, like a manipulative way, again, like you’re, you’re trying to trick people, but to just say like, whoa, like this is incredible.

Brenda: It’s playful, in a playful way.

Monica: It’s playful, you know? So, when you look at that, like those banners on Grand Central, Rockefeller Plaza, the New York Stock Exchange, like all of those were real, right? The dragon was real. So, you see that, and then you’re like, but the bridges, they’re not, you know, and everything, it was just like a total, so people were actually, they didn’t feel tricked. They were having fun. They were having fun, kind of understanding, like what they were seeing.

Brenda: If you could have anything that you wanted where, in terms of experiential, where do you hope things go five years from now?

Monica: I hope they’re sustainable. Right? That’s going to be a really interesting challenge and one I don’t have the answer for. Everyone’s been trying for years and years. But it’s you know I think substituting you know sustainably sourced MDF versus not is not the answer, right, like it’s going to take like pretty wild innovation to think about what that means. Right? Like it’s not just recycled materials. So, I think it’s a sustainable industry in which we can find ways to bring these stories to life that are low impact, and doing that through technology, through sort of social invitations versus maybe built environments as much. I love built environments, so it’s a tricky—makes me nervous to even say that because I love a built environment, you know? But I’m thinking, well, how could I do that sort of absent of materiality in some ways and just kind of invite people to experience things different?

So, I would say in five years I want to define that, and I want to find a way to always keep doubling down on relationships of people in real life. You know, that’s what inspires me is to see kind of what people are, what they’re doing in the world. There’s a reason I’m in experimental and that, you know, I just love that. So, I don’t know, I think it’s that and it’s, it’s making sure that the technology, while that will advance and we’ll find different ways of kind of creating environments, that they’re all in service, of just making things feel more human than they were ever before.

Brenda: You just have such an insightful way of thinking about, really, the whole world of experiential and the nature of people, and which gets back to your, right, origin with your interest in psychology.

Abby: And community building. A lot of your work brings communities together virtually or in person. So, you’re building communities, which essentially is what we all try to do, whether it’s exhibit design or in all the advertising that you do. Yeah, you bring together these people, so they keep this human connection, and the delight and all that you bring, we don’t have enough of that in the world.

So, thank you for all the work you do. I think it’s absolutely incredible and really excited to see what you can do next in New York City, what’s around the corner.

Brenda: I don’t know, I see you hitting rural areas next.

Monica: I would love that.

Brenda: I see that in your future.

Monica: I can’t stop dreaming about crop circles. I hope that’s not a hint.

Abby: Oh, you heard it here first, crop circles.

Brenda: No, I’m seeing you do major earthworks. Okay.

Abby: Thank you so much, Monica, for joining us today.

Monica: Thank you so much for having me.

Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in. If you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience wherever you listen to podcasts, make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. See you next time!

Brenda: Thank you everyone!

[Music]

Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp. and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

McCann Systems

SUMMIT One Vanderbilt

Refik Anadol

[Music]

Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience. My name is Abigail Honor.

Brenda: Hello, this is Brenda Cowan.

Abby: This podcast is produced by Lorem Ipsum in New York City and explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. Hello to anybody listening for the first time, and welcome back to our regular listeners. So, today our guest is my friend Brandon Harp, Director of Digital Experiences, leads McCann Systems’ Experiential Technology Practice. He works at the crossroads of media, architecture, technology and storytelling, which I think is a real sweet spot right now, and for the past 15 years has focused his interest in how humans interact with digital displays, how technology enhances and activates brands, and how media speaks to and influences audience. Brandon, welcome to the show.

Brandon: Thank you so much, Abby. Thanks for having me, and Brenda, I really appreciate it.

Brenda: Oh, we are so delighted to have you and to kick start off, I know that you have an early sort of origin story to the work that you’re currently doing, and I thought I would share an early memory of mine, which is making an exhibit in my bedroom when I was probably about six years old, and it was because I had found a small toy that I was convinced was the Loch Ness Monster. And I was so overjoyed by this that I decided that the very best thing to do, to share this wealth of information and to celebrate the toy, was to construct an exhibition in my bedroom. So, the rest actually is history for me. What about you, Brandon?

Brandon: Well, I don’t know that my story is as good as yours, Brenda. I mean, who doesn’t like the Loch Ness Monster?

Brenda: Who doesn’t? Indeed.

Brandon: But, for me, it actually started—I had, as a young kid, I had always wanted to be and had ambitions of being an architect. And so I remember I was at the store with my mother, and I convinced her to buy me a book of floor plans and I used to take those floor plans and mark them up with various different colors and highlighters and things, and kind of expand on the floor plans as if I was putting in an addition on a house and things like that. So, I’ve always had kind of this dream, I guess, of being an architect. And so now my work is taking me in the direction of audiovisual, and how does media fit within spaces and spatial planning, and, you know, how does the, essentially the technology work with the architecture to tell stories and so forth. So, it’s kind of come full circle for me, which is kind of exciting.

Abby: One of the things I wanted to chat about is: we talked earlier with the architect Alex Bitus about the importance of bathrooms. And now and again it crops up on our podcast, this theme, because it’s a personal favorite of mine. I really think it’s an underrated space. And so, when we were chatting earlier, you have sort of a very nice epiphany moment, which I can really appreciate, linked to being in a bathroom and it’s not going to be—

Brenda: The listeners are definitely interested now.

Abby: It’s not going to go to a bad place. So, you know, tell me about your epiphany story.

Brandon: Actually, I have two good bathroom stories, believe it or not, so we’ll get real spicy here. My first one was when I first encountered digital signage, which is really where I started my career. It was in a bathroom, believe it or not, and I was using the urinal and staring at the screen that was changing and it was showing advertisements of, you know, that bar that I was at, I believe, and maybe, you know, something else and then it would change and rotate and it, you know, really got me thinking that, you know, this is the wave of the future, right?

I guess my other bathroom story while we’re on this topic, which is kind of funny, is, you know, if you haven’t been to SUMMIT One Vanderbilt, they actually have some of the most amazing bathrooms and it’s because as part of the observation deck experience, you get to actually look out over the city from very high up in the air for these, full glass windows. It’s an amazing view and an amazing bathroom, literally, just because of the way that it was designed and the experience that’s involved in that. So I guess moral of the story is you can have an experience in the bathroom.

Brenda: You absolutely can.

Abby: See, see, it’s catching on. But just because you’ve just mentioned it, do you want to talk just now before we keep going about that project, seeing as you mentioned it, because I know you guys worked on it.

Brandon: Sure. Well, without giving it away, because I would encourage everyone to go see it and experience it for yourself. I think, you know, it’s easy in our world of audiovisual to get sucked into, you know, just focusing on the video element of things. And the vision that Kenzo Digital had, who was the immersive artist, was truly exceptional. It came to him in a dream, he presented it to Marc Holliday, the CEO of SL Green, and you have video mixed with audio and interactives and sight and sound and smell and art and all these things just kind of come together and really just blend so well. You get this, just this multi-sensory sort of experience that just changes your perception and your view. And you can be a New Yorker and go there and love every minute of that. You could be from another country around the world and go there and love every minute of it. And it’s never the same thing twice, which is really what’s interesting about it.

And, you know, a project like that that was under a grueling timeline, constantly changing of design, and so forth, really just trying to stay, you know, ahead of it, ahead of the design and being agile and limber enough to do so as a company. You know, we stayed on schedule during Covid and there were so many just things I think that could have adversely gone wrong that for us just didn’t. I don’t know if it was a stroke of luck, but maybe there was a little bit of that in there. But it was also, I think, just the sheer ambition of what it was that we were creating and, you know, knowing that the outcome was just going to be that incredible, so we were just constantly pushing to get to that finish line and now it’s, it is truly something. It still gives me goosebumps when I think about it. It’s, to me it’s something that certainly lights up my life, makes me happy every time I think about it, and I’ve loved and still enjoy sharing it with anybody who’s either hasn’t been there or maybe has been, but wants a, just a different experience and so…

Brenda: It sounds so amazing, and I also appreciate how you use New Yorkers as, even a New Yorker would go and find that. I have to ask you, you know, you’re describing such an ideal situation in terms of the client being in alignment with you and with all of the different companies and individuals involved in the process. And what a wonderful rarity. And I have to ask, you know, you work on huge projects in major cities. You weave technology into our every day, give us a hit of a challenging project. How do you creatively solve issues when things aren’t necessarily going so well?

Brandon: You know, oftentimes the challenges are just getting past, you know, what is the technology to create the experience? Because in our world and the approach that I take and McCann Systems takes is that there’s more to it than just the video wall. Right? And it’s easy for clients and designers and architects and so forth to say, well, hey, I need to understand what it’s going to take from a budgetary perspective to be able to put something like this in, right? Everybody wants the Sphere nowadays, that’s great, but your budget doesn’t necessarily support that in a lot of cases. So, it’s something that, you know, we try to advise our clients on at a very early stage that there’s more to it than just the technology. The technology, we will get it to do what you want it to do. But let’s peel the onion back a little bit. Let’s take a step back. Let’s take the technology off the table and let’s engage with the right partners. Right? Let’s talk about the content. Let’s talk about the storytelling. Let’s talk about the experience. You know, the human interaction as I always say, because what is it at the end of the day that you want people to feel?

And I think that’s, you know, going about things that way has been very, very successful for me and in my career. But also, you know, for the companies that I work for, because they understand that and it helps the client really dig deeper, right? Because if you’re just looking at the surface, which to me is the black LED screen, it’s a square or a box on a wall in a lot of cases, you need to be able to understand, you know, and have a strategy, you know, content strategy and what is the experience and how does the journey flow through the space, and if you think about those things, you know, you’re able to overcome a lot of design challenges. You’re able to overcome a lot of the guesswork that comes with trying to establish budgets and things like that, but it also gives the client, I think, a real peace of mind that they know you are an expert at this, and they’re hiring the right person for the right, all the right reasons.

Abby: So switching, you were recently on a panel at DOOH conference, and the discussion was about privacy, and I wanted to talk a little bit more about that and share with our listeners that phenomenon that we’re all very happy to share everything with our phone, our name, our phone number, our Social Security, date of birth, you name it, we’ll share it. But when it comes to larger screens, people, the public seem to get really creeped out by the suggestion that a large screen could sort of see them and respond to them, when I’m thinking about the great strides in technology we’ve made, where we can actually build these screens to dim if there aren’t a lot of people there to save energy or dim at night time when there’s nobody there. And so, we can actually make them sensitive to humans. And when we’re there and not there, and even just from a sustainability perspective, that’s good. But we don’t want any of that. Right? Human nature is seeming, and we were chatting a lot about that at the conference. So, you know, what’s your spin on that and perspective on that? Do you think that we’ll get over ourselves and we’ll be getting tracked by all these screens or, you know, I’d love for you to share your thoughts, Brandon.

Brandon: It’s always an interesting topic because, you know, how many times have you just been sitting there at night with your husband or wife or partner and you’re talking or whatever, and you mention something, and then all of a sudden you look at your phone and it’s like, oh, Google is listening to me, because now there’s an ad for, you know, whatever it was that you’re talking about. So, you know, I think, yes, there’s a lot of that on, on your personal device. And there can be a lot of it out in, in the wild or in public spaces and so forth. I think what you’re seeing is places where tracking of individuals moving through spaces, understanding their, you know, whether they’re a male or a female, their height, you know, how happy they are, are they smiling or are they not smiling, tracking those kinds of things: I think a lot of that nowadays is anonymous, which is good because really it’s just all about taking that data and then being able to repurpose it or reuse it in a way that it can influence something else.

And as somebody who, you know, really loves all things digital signage, call me a nerd or whatever, but I do like the data aspect of it, right, and taking data and utilizing that to influence decision making, but also in the art world, I think a good example of that would be, you know, Refik Anadol. Everyone knows Refik, right, for his work with the machine learning and the data visualizations. I mean, he’s taking data and turning that into art, and I think there’s something very powerful about that. And a lot of different clients that we have are asking about those kinds of things. How can we take financial data or metrics from something and be able to present it in a way that it creates a really unique kind of inviting ambiance, maybe in a lobby or something of that nature and then, you know, present it back to those people, right, and it, but it’s totally anonymous, right? It doesn’t infringe on you as a person. It doesn’t know who you are. It’s just gathering of data and repurposing it in ways that’s pretty exciting.

Abby: If I was running a museum and I spent a bunch of money on my brand new build, I would probably want to get anonymous data of what’s working, where people are hanging out, what they’re responding to, or even you might want to put it in to be able, Brandon, to explain to your client, look what’s working really well, what we did here works or it doesn’t work. I’m assuming that everybody would like data, so that they can learn and improve.

Brenda: You know, I’m thinking of a billion different things, and I’m really sad that I wasn’t at the DOOH conference, because I do have so many mixed feelings about this as well, and far too many, dinner table conversations with my husband about all of this, because, yes, we also, call us nerdy, talk about this quite a bit. But in terms of, even Abby, what you were just asking about in terms of, you know, museums or any kind of place wanting to be able to share data and also collect data about people’s responses to spaces and stuff like that, I think about a topic that came up at the SEGD Xlab conference, that we were all just at, and the question about a return on emotion and the, sort of, there was a mini conversation, if you all caught it, about, you know, some folks thinking that you can’t even really get that kind of data from people. And for me, that’s the data that I would be most interested in really understanding. And, Brandon, I’m wondering if you have specific thoughts about the idea of return on emotion. Do you see that as data that is able to be collected? And, you know, because emotion is a part of what it is that you try to work with and be sensitive to and understand and utilize within your own work.

Brandon: Everything that we do in terms of designing systems and installing them and servicing them, is to provoke emotions at the end of the day, and if it’s a part of an attraction or even if it’s just something, you know, in a lobby where people are passing by, it’s intended to create an emotion.

We recently did a project that we did, was for Mercer Labs here in New York City. It’s an immersive environment that’s got kind of the feel of an art gallery and an experience, just experiential spaces that really also captivate all of the senses. We had a partner who is testing out these wristbands that you can wear, and ultimately what it does is it picks up on brainwaves rather than heartbeats and things like that, and utilizing an app with this wristband, once you make your way through this, all the spaces, which took about an hour, we were provided with this data as to your level of immersion and your level of immersion is, you know, tied directly to emotion, right, and how you’re feeling about that space. So it’s interesting to see the data on that, and I found it interesting because prior to going into those spaces with the wristband, I kind of had it in my head, the ones where I would feel that emotion, really, the highest or the greatest, I guess, and in some cases it wasn’t always the case, so it was interesting.

I think it’s still kind of in its infancy stage, but I think it does, that anonymous data does lead towards something, right? And we know that it does help understand our emotions and our level of immersion as we are in these spaces, which is great. And if we can use that as part of actionable design and come up with new ways of, you know, helping people create spaces that are truly immersive like that, that every space can really get your senses up and generates this amazing feeling, then, you know, maybe we’re onto something.

Brenda: I think it’s, it’s so rich and potent and I think that as a tool for designers and as a tool for developers and planners, it would be so valuable to be able to have as best an understanding as possible about immersion and, you know, the level of engagement and the types of engagement, but also the intensity of emotion that we could, you know, reasonably anticipate, you know, from my perspective, you know, so that we could be particularly sensitive to how it is that we’re telling our stories and how we can be the most effective with a really deep awareness of being able to, frankly, help people and support people as much as get our message across in a way that’s really going to be comprehensive.

Abby: So, we’re going to move to airports So we’ve done some large projects in airports, large media projects, and I wanted to talk about airports because I know you, Brandon, have done some large projects. It’s like a new canvas. You know, you have people, unlike I think in a museum when they go into a museum to absorb content, you have them going to an airport to travel somewhere else. And so actually absorbing content or being ready to be told a story is very much secondary, even, if not thirdly or fourthly, on their agenda of why they’re at the airport. And so, it’s a really interesting playground and place to be able to tell these episodic stories. Can you tell us about one of your airport projects and where you see this sort of canvas going in the future?

Brandon: Yeah, the airports, you know, really seem to be a place that, you know, we can utilize this technology that we deal with on a day-to-day basis to help set the mode and set the tone for the experience that you’re about to have. And I’ve been talking about this theory of a connected journey, as I like to call it, and for me, it begins as soon as you get out of your Uber or someone drops you off on the sidewalk, then you start to make your way, you know, through TSA to get to your gate, onto your plane, off your plane, go pick up your bag and then get back into an Uber, a taxi, or even taking it a step further all the way to your final destination.

But you know, for me, I think in an airport, what really is important is giving people real time information at the right place so that they don’t have to search for, you know, the schedule on the app for that specific airline or for that specific, you know, terminal or anything like that. So, to me, it’s about giving people kind of the right information at the right time, because in general, airports can be overwhelming. They can be a feeling of negativity. Right? You’re maybe upset because your plane is a little delayed. So how do you, how do you change that? And I think that’s what we as people who design and build and service these systems we strive for, is to put, you know, as corny as it sounds, a smile on people’s faces.

And if you do that, in turn, you’re creating new revenue channels, right? Because they are a little more happy now. They’re feeling a little more euphoric. They’re feeling more comfortable in their surrounding environment, and therefore they’re going to get something to eat and they’re going to spend more money, or they’re going to go into one of the stores there, the retail stores, and buy a new outfit or a new, you know, piece of luggage or something, right, to just, because they’re feeling that way.

So I think it’s, it’s the connectedness of that passenger journey, and, you know, there are ways of, of still really interacting with people in fun, playful ways. Maybe it’s a video wall that has some sort of depth sensing camera that just kind of walks with you and kind of leads you down a path or leads you in the direction that you need to go towards the baggage claim. And maybe it waves at you or blows you a kiss, or does something that, you know, just kind of interacts with you to kind of put a smile on your face and keep you moving through the space, but multifunctional too even, you know, wayfinding is always a big element of an airport, and to me, that’s one of the first things I notice is if I find the wayfinding to be cumbersome or challenging or just, you know, not legible, in some cases, you know, how can you utilize a screen like that that could be interactive but also lead you to a certain destination right, and how does it get you from point A to point B?

So I think those are all things that are kind of a part of that connected journey and a lot of just kind of the, the recent things that we’re seeing in trends and ways of engaging people with digital displays throughout airports.

Brenda: I have to ask when—so, we’re talking about artistry, and we’re talking about being able to envision environments that are, you know, highly, highly aesthetic, emotion-rich and sculptural. Who on your team—please tell me there’s somebody on your team who brings pencil to paper in these early stages to really envision these kinds of applications and environments. I’m so curious.

Brandon: Yeah, there sure is. You know, we’ve got some, some really bright people that work for us. Ken Newbury is our CTO. We’ve got Ryan Palley, who just joined the company, who’s, I’ve been working with for years. And I’ll give those guys a shout out just because I work with them quite a bit on these, this little experiential island, as we call it, that we live on.

They understand this technology, they know it very well, and they’re very good at doing exactly like you said, Brenda, these little napkin sketches are helping a client, you know, think through, okay, what is, you know, what is this use case? What’s the application? How can we do something here that’s unique and really offers a, you know, an inviting solution, something that we can all be proud of. So, I think from an engineering standpoint, they’re the brains. They know this kind of stuff really well.

Brenda; We love people like them.

Brandon: You have to have them. But they’re also, they also have that creative gene, too, which is important. And not everybody has that, I think. But it is important to have the, you know, kind of marry the two, right, and creativity with engineering often don’t go together that well. So, finding people that do have that sort of, you know, blend of both skill sets, I think is really what makes us effective as a company.

Abby: Well, and kudos to you, Brandon, because you know, the way you approach what you do is: it’s a lot of custom work, it’s a lot of things that maybe haven’t been done before, and so you and your company are very willing to work with designers and make, as you did, dreams come true, literally. And, you know, that takes a lot of courage and courage from the company you work for. So where do you get the chutzpah from to do that?

Brandon: I think it’s always been in our DNA. I mean, when I joined McCann about six months ago, you know, something that really struck me was, that the company has always had the, the feeling and, and kind of wherewithal to not say no to things because they’re challenging. Right? In fact, it’s quite the opposite for us. We like that challenge. We like to take on the projects that others just simply don’t think can be done or refused to do because they see it as, you know, too risky or we just don’t have the right kind of personnel to give it a try. So, for us, I think, you know, that to me was a breath of fresh air. Right? And that’s kind of what we’ve always been known for and how we’ve always gone about our business as a company. So yeah, there’s not much that scares us, if anything, I guess, but, you know, if there’s a will, there’s a way, and I think, you know, McCann is always good at looking at that to find the, find the solution for the client.

Abby: Thank you so much, Brandon, for bringing us onto, onto your experiential island today. It’s been really fun.

Brandon: Thanks for having me. It was so much fun. And I hope the listenership get something out of it. It’s so inspiring to be a part of this community that we have. You know, there’s so many brilliantly smart people out there who, if you can, just take a little bit from every person and sort of apply that in different ways. I think it’s a great way of doing things. So always keep learning, always keep being creative and imagining. And it’s, it’s all possible.

Brenda: Here, here.

Abby: Thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you liked what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience wherever you listen to podcasts. Make sure to leave a rating and a review and please share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.

Brenda: Thank you so much everyone!

[Music]

Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle, Ph.d.

Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence (YCEI)

The Creativity Choice by Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle | Hachette Book Group

AR-Powered Interactive Artifacts

[Music] 

Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience. My name is Abigail Honor.

Brenda: And I’m Brenda Cowan.

Abby: This podcast is produced by Lorem Ipsum here in New York City and explores the creativity, innovation, and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. Hello to anybody listening for the first time, and a big welcome back to our regular listeners.

So today our podcast guest is Zorana Pringle, who is a senior research scientist at the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence, where she primarily studies the role of emotional intelligence and self-regulation in creativity and well-being. She received the Award for Excellence in Research from the Mensa Education and Research Foundation, and the Berlin Award for Outstanding Early Career Achievement from the Society for the Psychology of Aesthetics, Creativity and the Arts. Zorana is also the author of an upcoming book called The Creativity Choice, where she explains how to make ideas into realities and dispels the myth that creativity is a trait that you’re born with. So, I think we can have some fun today with this, Zorana. Big welcome to the show.

Zorana: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Brenda: We are so delighted to have you here and to talk about what I think is at the root of so much that makes us human: the relationship between creativity and emotions. Let’s begin with some broad strokes, though. You work at the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence. How do you define emotional intelligence, and why is this an important area of research?

Zorana: So, scientists define emotional intelligence as set of four related abilities: they are abilities to accurately perceive emotions in oneself and others, ability to use emotions to help thinking and problem solving, the ability to understand emotions, and the ability to regulate or manage emotions both in oneself and in others. And if you think of general intelligence that we have all heard about, it is about solving problems. Emotional intelligence is also about solving problems, but those problems are emotional in nature.

Abby: Obviously, we all feel we are all trapped in these, our own bodies and and our brains and we feel. But you’re not putting that aside when we’re thinking about how we perceive other people feeling. Because for me, I would say, don’t most people, I guess unless they’ve had some sort of trauma, feel their own emotions and thoughts. You can’t sort of escape those.

I’ve met a lot of people who can be very emotional, but completely, like, tick the first four things personally, but when it comes to thinking about somebody else, they’re tone deaf and totally emotionally do not understand other people and hit any of those four things, but you seem to pop them together.

Zorana: Yeah, it seems that they largely go together. It is possible to think of individuals who are able to solve problems and figure out what they are feeling themselves and understand what’s going on with themselves, but then not translate that to others. But that’s more of an exception than the rule. When we are trying to understand, perceive what’s going on emotionally, we are solving a problem.

It doesn’t seem like we are solving a problem because nobody kind of posed it formally, but essentially, we are solving a problem because we are collecting different pieces of information and making a judgment of what is the solution to those pieces. So, think of, okay, if somebody asks you this moment, how are you? What are you feeling? You are not in that moment thinking what you were feeling. You were just going about your business. And so, for a second you have to say, okay, let me figure that out. Let me solve that problem. Let me answer it. And then you are trying to gather information, and we gather information about emotions. And then we can use emotion as information for other things we do in life.

So, if you are trying to say, when you are asked that question, what are you feeling right now, you have to get together the clues. Okay. What am I doing? Are there some physical symptoms I have? Jitteriness, palms sweating, and when you start putting those things together, you can start piecing it and putting labels to it. Okay, if you are feeling very activated in your body and you are feeling unpleasant, well, maybe you are anxious or maybe you are angry. Which one fits the situation better? So, you are solving that problem.

But you are using similar kinds of information when you’re making judgments about what somebody else might be feeling. You are not going to have first person information about the internal experience of activation, but you can observe it in behavior to a certain extent, and you can perceive those behavioral signs of what might be going on with somebody else, from facial expressions, from body language, from tone of voice and things like that. So you are, in both cases, you are collecting information and putting information together.

Abby: When are you talking about emotional intelligence in the example you gave, like a physical thing, all picking up on audio cues, what about knowing a history of somebody? Are you talking about emotional intelligence of meeting a stranger, or emotional intelligence when you could know why they would be feeling a way they are?

Zorana: Sort of both. If we are meeting a stranger, we have fewer cues to make an informed judgment. Think of it as, how much certainty we can have in what somebody is experiencing. We are going to have more margin of error if you are meeting somebody from the first time, because you are going to be relying on more superficial things.

If you know already somebody and have a relationship and know how strongly they respond to things, for instance, you can calibrate for that and take it into account. I happen to have a friend who is very emotionally reserved from his cultural background, he is of Scandinavian origin. It is not very expressive for somebody who grew up in the Mediterranean like myself.

So, I have to take that into account when making a judgment. The fact that he doesn’t raise his voice very much, whereas people I grew up around do, does not mean that he’s not excited, it’s just you have to take that into account. And if I met him for the first time, there would be more chance of me misjudging it.

Brenda: You know, it’s making me think about one of the studies that I did with a museum in Stockholm, and it was an exhibition project that they were co-creating with folks from the Syrian community, both immigrants and also refugees. And I was fortunate to be able to work with like 35 different families across the country, Syrian families, and to talk with them about what their partnership was like with the institution.

And I heard over and over and over again about how very, very different emotion and expression was between the two cultures, and it seemed to be one of the biggest difficulties, actually, was, you know, miscommunication and folks just not really syncing with each other until the museum created an exhibition that enabled the Syrian community to tell their individual stories.

And all of the sudden there became this sort of this middle ground that the Syrian folks would refer to as their new home, where they could express themselves and actually feel like they were being understood and heard. And in the, you know, in the form of the museum. It was really remarkable.

Abby: Let’s talk about creativity. Let’s start with a tough question. What is creativity from your perspective?

Zorana: Creativity is something that is in the same time original and in some way meaningful, appropriate, useful or effective, depending on different contexts and depending on what area of work we are talking about. And I don’t want to get into a trap of saying anything specific that is going to limit how creativity can be expressed, because it can be expressed in any medium, in any area of life, from it being in an idea to being in a design to being in a piece of art. And so I want to leave that part open. The key is original and, in some way, meaningful, useful, or effective.

Abby: Okay, I’m going to pick up on the original because my background is painting, as our listeners who listen in know, and then filmmaking. And when I researched and studied the history of art, you see that everything evolves, right? You learn from the past, previous artists, you build, technology evolves. And so this idea of originality, from my perspective, seldom happens. When you say original, can you help me understand better what you mean? If I think that everything is a derivative of something, it could be a new version of or a different spin on, but from at least in my experience, there’s nothing that’s truly original.

Zorana: And I do not disagree with you. If we take the definition of original as something that is in no way related to what has been done before, but if we go into that territory, I think we are almost getting in territory of religion and starting from nothing. And in creativity studies we don’t do that. We see that there are different ways of being original and different levels of being original.

So, it can be an original version of something that is in some ways different from what has been done before. It can be original that is a different kind of reaction to what has been done before. As I think of history of art, I am not an artist myself, but I love art and art history, and I think of it as a series of reactions.

So, there is a movement in art and then another movement emerges, oftentimes in reaction to it. It still makes it original, and it’s meaningful because it is interacting with the existing world and getting an effect from its audiences. Another thing that you have mentioned that reminded me as you were talking about there is no true originality, well, what’s the meaning of true originality, made me think, well, maybe that true originality comes in only in this, what creativity scholars call big C form. And big C is creativity of people and creativity of products that are changing our culture. None of us here are physicists, but if you think of what physicists you can name, those are the big C physicists.

You can name Einstein, you can name Bohr, for instance, or Tesla. Those are the big C creators. They have completely changed how we view something, how we understand something, and even our culture. I think that the reason why I don’t like to talk about originality in that way is it can be discouraging. If you know, and I, for example know that I am not, you know, a Picasso, it could be discouraging, because if you cannot be that and if that is the only originality there is, what can you contribute?

Brenda; Part of what keeps going through my head, listening to this is one of the nuggets of inspiration I received when I was kickstarting a lot of my own research work. You know, I had a lot of self-doubt and self-judgment, and I thought, well, but, you know, am I really contributing anything? And is this new? And the advice was learn how to see the familiar in unfamiliar ways.

And that was really invigorating. You know, I actually also started as a painter, and it just, despite getting a degree in it and so on and so forth, it never really gelled. And I never thought of myself as a creative person until I started teaching. You know, there’s ambition, there’s intention, obstacles, you have to pivot all the time and needing to keep things going when they’re not working.

And you’ve got to try to make connections and then breakthroughs. And, you know, ultimately, one of the keys I find for myself is empathy comes into play quite a lot. The need to connect, to see others, to be open to, to see into relationships. Zorana, I know that you see a relationship between creativity and our capacity to engage with empathy. What does that look like for you?

Zorana: As psychologists have studied the creative process, they have identified one of the key aspects, if not the key aspect as something we call problem finding. And what problem finding is, is identifying and then constructing and developing, reframing and redeveloping what we are working on. In that process, empathy is a great starting point. You might start with a given problem, that, so you are not identifying the problem directly.

A client is, for instance, approaching you with a certain issue they need to address and to give us direction and imbue meaning in that process of narrowing and honing in to how to approach a certain task is the lens of empathy, is thinking of the end users of our products or of our designs? Thinking of what are their needs?

What are the obstacles they might be experiencing? Talk to them. Learn from them, truly listen, and be open to changing the ideas that you start with based on that feedback.

Abby: So, you said my big C-word, Zorana, clients. So, when we think about, when we think about emotional intelligence, we have to manage up when we’re designing spaces and we have to manage them and where they’re coming from and the pressures that they’re under. But I don’t really ever feel that they’re managing us at all, when we’re under stress and strain clients and maybe roles that people have, cause people to need to have higher emotional intelligence or not care or not need to have the same amount of emotional intelligence. So how is it when it comes to hierarchy, maybe on a project, and when I’m thinking about clients?

Zorana: Emotional intelligence skills help in all interactions, and you have to approach different interactions in different ways. So, you have interactions with colleagues on a project, interactions potentially with people who are leaders in places where you work and to whom you are responsible. In some ways, you have interactions with people outside of your organization who are coming up with problems for you to solve, and they are having relationships with people who they are responsible to.

How successful a project will be, and the nature of the design will be is dependent on the success of communication with all of those different relationships. That makes it much more complicated, obviously. There was research that shows that when clients are represented by middle managers, they approach this interaction with a designer in a very particular way. They approach it with almost a checklist of I want this, this, this, and this in an end design, when those pieces of the checklist may not be the ideal choices for the design to be truly successful, because what they are doing is they are not fully present in the interaction, not fully hearing the designers with their input. They are only reflecting the fears and concerns from those they are responsible to. When we are truly present in the interaction, we can then be hearing both sides and opening up a conversation. For that to happen, there needs to be certain prerequisites. There needs to be a level of trust on different sides of the relationship.

Brenda: I’m listening and I’m thinking, you know, again, back to creative process, how it can bring out a lot of frustration, a lot of fear. You talked about the need for trust, and especially in situations where there are vulnerabilities, trust is a really big ask. And I see with my students, for example, they have to embrace the unknown. All of us who are in, you know, the creative design world have to, to a certain extent, embrace the unknown in the work that you do.

Right? Good design means not knowing exactly where things are going to end up. You have to have faith that your skills and abilities to work with others will result in unexpected or rich outcomes that really work for visitors. And I’m curious Zorana, how do we overcome this, what I think anyway, is natural anxiety that comes with being creative, and that could be, like we’re talking about, in the form of interactions with others, or even just amongst ourselves?

Zorana: I think that’s a beautiful question. And the real answer is we are not going to overcome the anxiety. And once people know that the creative process, not just for you, there is nothing unique about you experiencing this anxiety, experiencing this uncertainty, experiencing doubts. Everybody who is involved in creative work, in the creative process is going to experience these things.

They are integral to the process. I think that is freeing because then you realize that there’s nothing unique about you that is wrong. Sometimes when we feel something unpleasant, we feel something is wrong with us. No, nothing is wrong with you. This is completely natural part of the process. That does not mean that you cannot do anything about it, but you also, you have to start with the realization that this will happen.

I have recently come across, a quote from Georgia O’Keeffe. And let’s face it, we all love Georgia O’Keeffe. And she said that she was never comfortable with anything she did in her life, that she was terrified of all the decisions she made and all the things she tried, but that never stopped her in doing it.

Some of us are more prone to feeling vulnerable and feeling anxious. Well, I happen to be one of those people, but that doesn’t mean that you cannot do things. You can do things even if you don’t feel comfortable. It’s okay. You can still do it. You manage those feelings. You learn to live with them and manage them but accepting that they are going to be part of the process will liberate you in knowing that, well, you know, you are not special in the way of being specially broken. That is just part of it.

Abby: Well, I was going to jump in as well and just piggyback on that, because I think having fear is very much akin to excitement and adrenaline, at least for me. So, whenever we’re, you know, doing something that is making me have doubts, fears, it’s now synonymous with thrills and excitement because I’ve had practice, doing things that are not comfortable. And the more practice you have, I totally agree Zorana, it never goes away. I think it shouldn’t go away. It’s like an intrinsic human condition to be scared. It’s not bad. It just is. I mean, it protects us, right, from bad things happening. So having fear is something you live with. But for me, being happy in that moment of fear and knowing that it’s going to pass and using it and harnessing it. So, I sort of embrace fear. I like it.

Brenda: You’re a junkie.

Abby: I’m a junkie. You have to if you want to be creative, because like we talked about earlier, if you want to push any boundaries, then that usually involves doing something original, new, different, that is not going to be comfortable because there are no guarantees there. So, I feel like fear and creativity, it’s sort of synonymous.

Zorana: I very much agree. And in the emotion science, what we talk about is reframing. So, the same experience can be framed in different ways. You can say, I am experiencing this jitteriness right now because I am anxious. I am anxious because I am unsure whether I can do this, or you can reframe it and say, I am experiencing this because I deeply care about how I’m going to do on this task, and this reflects my level of commitment and the excitement for it, but also realization of how important it is.

Brenda: Okay, how about exhibitions? So not everybody is going to be moved by an artwork or let’s say sometimes exhibitions with fine art in them fail to engage folks who maybe don’t feel welcomed or who don’t feel knowledgeable enough in the first place. What can we who are in the design profession, what can we do to make art more accessible and open up more possibilities for people to experience deep emotional interaction with art?

Zorana: Currently, we are working on a big project where we are studying what makes art meaningful and the theoretical framework, we are using what is called the mirror model of art based in psychology of art and empirical aesthetics. And what it states is that the process of art appreciation is a mirror reverse image of a process of art creation.

So what happens in creating art, in that process, is that artists start with ideas, concepts, insights, or feelings they want to convey in their work and then finally they put those finishing touches on their piece and audiences start with those finishing touches” what is in the piece physically, what is jumping at them, and then if they continue engaging with it, they start making personal connections, and then they start wondering about what artist’s intentions and ideas might have been. So as museum designers and exhibition curators, our task would be to facilitate this process, facilitate engagement so that it doesn’t stop. It continues so that people can make this progression and truly engage in it.

Now, you have raised something very important in that there are barriers for people in engaging with art, some relatively physical and some that are more social and psychological, where people, many people feel either unwelcome in the art spaces or cannot see themselves in their own experiences represented.

And to truly reach that deep experiences of art, we have to see it. We have to, in some way be able to, to connect with it. And our challenge is to curate with that in mind.

Abby: Zorana during Covid, we were part of multiple different companies who worked with Cooper Hewitt, the Smithsonian online collection of 3 million, over 3 million exhibits, and they wanted to activate it beyond the walls of the museum and to visitors who didn’t feel like they belonged within the museum walls. We chose a group of objects, and it was all from the La Belle Époque in the 1912s.

It was all from a music room. So, we chose them to be from this specific space. And then on the phone, you use the QR code, download an app and you step through a portal and into this room and all the way that the conversation was, the text panels were not text panels, they were little pop ups that spoke in very conversational tone and reference. For example, like the Neapolitan ice cream was the favorite ice cream of this time period. What’s your favorite ice cream? So, it was really about democratizing, in a way, these institutions and making them more approachable and reaching and bringing in new audiences who could resonate with all these stories, these untold stories that these artifacts have. So, it’s interesting you bring all this up because it was exactly what we were trying to do with that project.

Zorana: Sounds like a wonderful idea where you are doing two important steps. One is bringing people in who might not be interacting with artworks to begin with, but then you are doing an extra step in helping them make that personal connection from which they can engage more deeply.

Abby: So, Zorana, thank you so much. This was thought provoking, insightful. I just absolutely loved it. And next time I’m, you know, boldly going where I’ve not gone before and got sweaty palms, I’ll think about you and getting through to the other side. So, thank you so much.

Brenda: Thank you, Zorana.

Zorana: Thank you very much.

Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, please subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience wherever you listen to podcasts, make sure to leave a rating and a review. Share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.

Brenda: Thank you everyone!

[Music]

Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

love good color

Adobe’s Founders Tower Provides a Glimpse Into the Future of Work

Project Color Corps

ec reems academy

[Music]

Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. Our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. If you’re new, a hearty, warm welcome. And to our regular listeners, thank you for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name is Abigail Honor.

Brenda: And this is Brenda Cowan.

Abby: So today, Brenda, we’re discussing all things color, from bright and attention seeking to muted and quiet. We’re going to be looking at how color affects us and how we can design with it for specific outcomes. Today’s guest is synonymous for me with the word color. It’s my pleasure to give a big, bright sunshine orange welcome to Laura Guido-Clark. Laura, welcome to the show.

Laura: Thank you so much. I’m so honored to be here and to share your color enthusiasm.

Abby: So, Laura, you launched a groundbreaking color methodology back in 2017, it’s called LOVE GOOD COLOR, that uses science and the senses to help designers factor in emotive responses when using color, and through your work, you empower organizations to strategically shift their approach to designing through color for deep impact. You’ve applied this methodology to your work with companies like Herman Miller, HP, Samsung, and Toyota, and we’re really excited today to learn how color can be a change agent and how to design with it successfully.

Brenda: Before we dive deeply into the world of design, Abby and I always love with all of our guests to get a sense of your journey, the origin story, if you will. How does one wind their way into the world of color?

Laura: When I was ten, I saw The Wizard of Oz, and I always say that when Dorothy stepped into the Technicolor world, I went with Dorothy. I never came back from Oz, and it was so striking to me, the world she left, the sepia color world, to Oz, and Oz just represented hope and opportunity. And it was really the first time that I ever noticed that color was powerful like that, and I somehow felt it was going to play a role in my world. I just didn’t know how.

Brenda: Oh my gosh. Wow.

Laura: Yeah.

Abby: So, what was your background? So, you’ve obviously always had a passion for color, but can you talk to us about your background and sort of how you balanced design with your other interests?

Laura: Yeah. Well, honestly, I was really torn between being a doctor or a designer. So, I was in pre-med and in interior design, and I was getting ready to apply to medical school. And I had a couple more classes in organic chemistry and I remember having this epiphany that I didn’t want to be a doctor and that I really needed to do design, and I got up and I turned in all my lab equipment, and my lab partners were going crazy, like, you’re, this is just a moment. You, don’t, you’re going to regret this. I said, I’ve never been clearer in my whole life. And I turned in my lab equipment, and I’ve never, ever regretted the decision.

Brenda: Wow. Well, I’m going to not ask what your folks perhaps might have thought about this moment. Or anybody else.

Laura: It took me three months to tell them.

Brenda: Oh. But I think it’s really fascinating. And I’m going to wager a guess here that there’s a definite link between your background in the sciences and the fundamentals of color. Can you tell us a little bit about what is it that people are responding to when they respond to color? How does this work?

Laura: Well, I think one of the things that’s most fascinating about color is not only the science of it, but the association it has with language. I believe it is another language, that actually color can tell stories that sometimes words can’t possibly tell. And if you notice, if you walk into a room, no one has to give you a cue about how you’re feeling.

Color many times is signaling all of those things. And it could be a memory, a color memory. It could be just the way that it perhaps evokes nature. But color is speaking to us all the time. And I think that that’s what really drew me to it, because it was a way of communicating that sometimes I found we weren’t able to say those things with words.

And the way that color works, I mean, it’s a wavelength. Not only do you see it, you feel it. And that is a really powerful thing. And they have done studies where sighted as well as blind students can have a like effect, because color is a wavelength. And I think that that’s another part of color that, that makes me feel that it’s a tool that’s often underutilized or perhaps sometimes thought of as only on the surface. And yet it is really the heart, the heart of the matter. Right?

Brenda: Wow. Absolutely. Now, we would be remiss not to give a nod to folks with color blindness.

Abby; Yeah, that’s, that’s completely true. So, my mom is actually colorblind, and my daughter is colorblind, too. So, I live with that awareness in all its shapes and forms. But it really does, it’s a big part of their experience with the world. So, do you work in any way with an awareness that different people experience color in different ways? And my second question, which is a toughie, do you think that in general, we’re, we’re all born to appreciate color.

Laura: I always take into consideration color blindness. We run our colors through the app, so we understand what people who are colorblind are seeing. I’ve met the person who worked on the EnChroma glasses, which can correct color blindness and seeing how powerful that really is. And my father was colorblind, which I didn’t really realize. I just thought that he was super organized and that my mom just like, wrote the colors of his socks and organized his drawers.

I thought, wow, this is something, wow, like she’s super organized. But then I realized he couldn’t see in color. And the other part of color is that we are all still seeing color a little bit differently, and all the way we see it on our screens, our screens are calibrated differently. And also, the way we respond to color is different culturally.

And we also, I think, have a way of thinking about color through color memories. Color memories don’t go away. So, when you’re working with a client, you really have to take into consideration if they’ve had not a good experience with a certain color and from what I heard, I think Zuckerberg is colorblind, and that’s, he picked the color of Facebook because it was a color he could see.

Brenda: So, my husband is a digital retoucher, and so everything that he does is about color and is about understanding color and how color builds shape and volume and dynamic and everything else. And so, in the work that he does now, mostly for ad agencies, he’s constantly sculpting with color, and it’s amazing to me how his clients, how hard it is for them to really kind of understand the complexity of working with color. He does a lot of skin, skin tones, and I hear him all the time talking with his clients, just saying, you’ve got to trust me if this is not perfect, if this is not done incredibly well, they will see that it’s fake.

Abby: Well, just jumping on the skin, Laura, you know, we were chatting about how we can read subtle fluctuations in our skin, right? There’s a whole science.

Laura: Yeah, well, that’s one of the things that Changizi discovered, he was a neurobiologist, and he found that the reason why we seeing color is to read human emotion, and that we as humans can read the subtle fluctuation of hemoglobin on our skin and primates who have less hair on their face, the rods and cones in their eyes are shaped more like ours, so they can read those too. And to your point earlier, I believe that we are very pure and recognize color, colorblindness or not, that there’s a way that color still moves us in the world and that we all know more than we give ourselves credit for. But I believe what happens, like with children’s art, judgment comes in the way, and we fear we’re going to do it wrong. And so, we play less and less with color and become safer when we really need to be using it as a powerful tool to support the intentions of space or product or whatever it is we’re doing.

Abby: As ever, just another side note, as we grow up, we seem to just sanitize ourselves and our creativity and our play. I have no idea why and we fight constantly against that. I know Brenda and I both try to channel our inner—

Brenda: Child.

Abby: —child, and when we are designing. But you’re on a journey to change the world with color. What is it about the power of color that really captures your imagination and makes you think that you can make a change to the lives of people you design for?

Laura; I think that color represents a story. I think it represents our personal story, our personal longings, and I believe that it also represents our inner beauty projected on the exterior. So, I know that when I’m working in my nonprofit with children and they start to see these things that they’re creating come alive, it creates a greater sense of belonging because it is of them. It is done with them, and I believe it is part of their culture that they’re representing, part of their dreams and their journeys. I think it is, well, we call it optical optimism, but it’s a game changer.

Brenda: Wow, I absolutely love that. I love optical optimism. Laura, is there like a particular way that you find yourself bringing your clients into the world of color and help them kind of see all of the possibilities that are there?

Laura: One of the reasons why I developed the system was so that I could engage our clients in a way that is very respectful, and it asks questions of them that they know how to answer. So, when we sit down in sessions, we don’t ever start with color. We start with words and language. And so that becomes this process where they feel heard and they feel seen, just like the kids in the community.

And then we start to do this process of discovery, and then we can show them ways that color can be associated to their needs and their intentions. And then all of a sudden it becomes much more fun, and it doesn’t become something that’s, you know, this is what it is, and I know and you don’t know. It’s never those conversations.

It’s more like, oh, I see. So, you don’t like blues, well, let’s shift to the same feeling in something you do like, like a red. And I think that this is where the conversation becomes super rich and where alignment can come with the client and with your team.

Abby: What’s the process then, you mentioned you start with words. Can you talk us through like an example of a typical process with a new client?

Laura: Yeah. So, we, we need to understand who they are as a brand. And it might seem seemingly simple to boil down to, you know, 3 to 5 words who you are as a brand, but it could take hours or days to do that type of work. And then if we’re working on a building, it’s really understanding what each space is doing. What is it supporting? What do you want people to feel in that space? What are they doing in that space? And we use those as language-based cues.

And I think a good example of this is the way that we worked with Adobe and Gensler on the Adobe Founders Tower. We programmed every single space with LOVE GOOD COLOR. So, every single space we understood deeply the intention of the space and color was selected based on those needs. And all of a sudden it became so much easier. It was a puzzle that came together very seamlessly because we understood what it was, we were trying to say, communicate, and support.

And so that’s really how we work with our clients. And it could be a product. We work with the children in the schools that way. How do you want to feel when you come to school? You know, nobody asks them.

Abby: No. No. Environment, hugely underdeveloped and under spoken about in classrooms. My mom started as a classroom teacher and the first thing she had her kids do in September was transform the classroom into an environment, and whether it was a huge tree in the middle, whatever they wanted to, so that they felt ownership on their space and not like they were sitting in a cube with things on the wall.

Laura: I love your mother.

Brenda: Oh my gosh. Abby’s mother is incredible. Absolutely incredible. So why did you found Project Color Corps? This is your nonprofit organization that believes that color is a change agent and infuses a sense of well-being, joy, and interestingly, you talk about equity as it’s related to color and how it is brought into our surroundings. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the work that you have done?

Laura: I believe we’re on our, I think, 22nd project, and we’re now in four cities across the country, which is very exciting for us. But I think it’s very hard for a child to muster a sense of hope in hopeless settings. And what I find is that they’re often surprised that we would actually come and work on their spaces, which is very heartbreaking to me. Like, why would you want to do this for us?

So, what happens is that they begin to think that that is their value, which couldn’t be further from the truth. And what I realized about color is its humanistic qualities. And again, it’s a way for us to connect with one another. And so, using it, I saw how powerful it was for my clients. And I started wondering, like, how about all the people who don’t get that? And how could we go into these spaces and work with them so that they see themselves in their environments? And that’s the, really the whole point of it, is they see their inner strength and beauty every single day.

Brenda: Having hope in a place that is a significant part of your life, and that is such a significant part of your world, is so critical to the fundamental sense of well-being that a person needs, and it’s so important and so wonderful that you’re able to do this. Can you give us like, an example of one project that you can tell us about where you saw, maybe a real transformation or that really had, was there like a magic moment that you were able to witness or experience?

Laura: Yeah, I think that every project, I walk away feeling like I got the gift. I feel like I get way more than I give and let me just share with you our very first project, because it was the hardest one to get. You would think that people would want to sign up and say, oh, I want this to happen. And I kept thinking, do they think I want them to paint my house? Like nobody was volunteering. I’m like, I don’t understand this, but I don’t think people even understood that this was an option or an opportunity.

But the very first school we went into was called the E.C. Reemes Academy. It was—it was located in what was called the Killers’ Corridor of Oakland because the kids were in lockdown a few times a week from drive-by shootings. And when I went to the school to engage, our engagement is usually about a year long, they asked me why their neighborhood never got color and why they never got nature. And when I talked to them about their feelings and what they were hopeful for in their school, they said, do you think you could, you know, create a space that would make us feel respected? Could you create a space where people might want to come and visit us, because no one wants to visit us now?

And so, it was this really deep understanding of how they will not only hold themselves, but the environment around them. And it made me realize that as we went through this process that, you know, we’ve been told that disruptive behavior is actually reduced in our engagement. It’s giving a voice to the children and the community and letting them all along see that they are so powerful. And so, I think for me, it just reinforces that we don’t really give voice enough to children and communities, and we don’t, and we really underestimate neuroaesthetics and what a facility can do for learning, for growing, for many, many other things.

Abby: What’s really interesting about your story, though, Laura, is when you have a vision… I just want to talk about people in business or in nonprofit who have a vision for something that you know the community needs, and the difficulty you had to persuade the first person to adopt it. It’s hard, right? And it’s amazing because, you know, there’s a need and you have to sort of beat that door down or try to find that connection, that magnet that’ll set you off, because I’m sure after that first one, once you’ve got that first case study, the penny seems to drop for people. And they’re like, yes, we need you. Laura, come over here.

Laura: Yeah.

Abby: Why are human beings like that in the first place? Why was it so hard, you think, to find that first group?

Laura: I think because we don’t know what we don’t know. So, it was never, ever part of a conversation when we’re talking about education. It’s always thought of as something superfluous. It’s, isn’t that nice. And if you think about it, it’s not really taken into many school districts, nor is it really, you know, maybe in affluent communities, you see, there are beautiful schools, but typically it’s thought of as institutional. And it is like the antithesis. It’s like beating the life out of creativity. I mean, we talk about why is that happening to us. Look at where we put the kids.

Brenda; Even in, in my workplace, in our college campus, when I first started working there, I got an office space, and I was told that it was going to be painted, and I was excited. I said, well, you know what? You know, where’s the fan deck, and so that I can pick the color and they’re like, no, no, no, no, no, it’s going to be white. And this is standard, and this is how it’s going to be. And there was this moment when they realized that that was not going to be acceptable to me, because in my office, it’s where I would have, you know, first of all, where I would be working all the time. But I meet with students in there, I work with my colleagues in that space. I have to be able to decompress in that space. And so, you know, I was certainly quite polite about it or whatever. but I went out, I picked the color, I bought the color, I brought the color. And I, you know, was going to paint it myself. And finally, they were okay, okay, okay. And they painted with my color.

Abby: Which was what color, Brenda? Tell us.

Brenda: Well, two colors. Okay. And one is a very soft, very beautiful kind of milky sagey green. It’s a very happy color. And then it’s complemented with a very, kind of a periwinkle purple, soft, again, another very milky color. And at any rate, it just always, always feels good.

Laura: No, but it’s great you advocated for that. We just recently did a school where we had done these big murals, and we created fencing for the kindergartners because they were exposed to the streets. And we painted these murals. And then the school learned that they were up to be painted, to be repainted, and they would not let them paint it beige. They said, you have to work with Project Color Corps. 

Brenda: Excellent.

Laura: And so that school is like a beacon in the community.

Brenda: Fabulous.

Laura: Because the entire thing was painted, multicolored buildings, we were really able to advocate on a much bigger level and to refuse what was normally standard, which is beige.

Abby: So, in terms of thinking about your methodology and designers, what are some guidelines or some advice you could give. They’ve listened to you today, they’re very enthusiastic, they want to go out there and try to use color more effectively. Could you just tell us some stepping stones to help them as they’re thinking about this?

Laura; I think the first thing that I would say is to be intentional, to have a very deep understanding of your goals in this space, not only with space planning, but with color, to really understand how color can play a supporting role, sometimes a major role, because it’s the biggest dosage you’re going to get of any one thing. So, I would say be intentional.

The second thing would be to engage in conversation with your client, to make sure that you are understanding the needs and to bring them into it so that they become part of a process and not an end result.

And then the third thing would be to play and play and play, because it is amazing the things you can uncover and create when you take the pressure off and just be playful and mix colors in different ways, and it’s really about discovery.

So, I would think that those things are some of the more fundamental things you could do when you’re working on any kind of space.

Abby: I like the way that you’re saying what’s your intention for the space. Maybe it’s a place to relax and reflect, and then what are the colors that the designer feels are relaxing or, you know, a place that you can really turn off and that’ll be different for different people, right? You’re not—I’m guessing it’s not like, oh, if you need it to be reflective, then you go for these greens and these blues. It, it’s literally as you mentioned earlier, it could be a red.

Laura: It’s a quality of color. And here’s the big part, and I think this is why I was really motivated to, to do this color system is that we learn color spectrally. It’s a drawdown of orange. We learn it as a family. It’s the orange family from light to dark. But the quality of that color you can imagine can be horizontal. So, the quality of a color, like you said, that’s calming. Orange can be calming too. It’s about the quality of color. So, saturation and brightness can have a greater effect than the hue. And so, we don’t often think that, we’re always thinking in the spectral world. Red is anger, red is love, red is, you know, it’s like wow, that’s a heavy lift. It’s like, but what red?

And the key is everyone will want their brand color somewhere. But the key is where is it the strongest, and the answer isn’t everywhere. You know, that’s not the answer. The answer is like sometimes the smallest dosage could be the most powerful and the most strategic, because the overall goal of any space is to make the people inhabiting it feel welcome and a sense of belonging, a sense of community. Right? And you can’t feel that if something is imposed on you.

Brenda: Laura, we need to know. What does your home look like? Is it bold and colorful, tell us. Give us just a little hint of what it feels like in your own living space.

Laura: The colors in my home are very reflective, I would say, of nature. They’re calming. There’s a lot of greens or paler colors and I use color as an accent. I’m always thinking of what I want to highlight and what my eye wants to be drawn to. So that’s the way that I use color. And in my space, I can’t use color because I’m always analyzing color. So, it can affect, you know what I’m looking at? It’s like being in the light box, right? There has to be a sense of purity to the space, because my whole world is about looking at color and creating palettes. And so, it’s, it’s quite neutral.

I’m not by nature a big, like a bold color person. You know, I have tried to wear a red dress for probably 20 years, and I still can’t wear it because I believe every time I put one on, I’m shouting. I’m like, hello. You know, I can’t do it. So, I feel like my space is more kind of reflective of my, my personality in a way, you know, where it’s a little bit more… I mean, I love to laugh, but I’m just saying I don’t have, like, fun colors everywhere. It would be hard for me to live in a space like that.

Abby: Have we got anything Laura that you’re about to work on, like, what more is that to do for you? That’s why I’m like, you’ve already done so much, like do you feel that there’s still a challenge to get the word out wider?

Laura: I think that for me, the thing I’m focusing on the most is how I can be of service to others. I am working on some senior living and health care where people are more vulnerable. And so I want to make sure that they’re in environments that really help them to heal. I’m starting to work on projects in public schools, so that the interiors of the spaces that the children are in are supportive and just bring them to a whole new level of discovery.

And then I want to grow Project Color Corps to many different cities. I always thought of it as the Peace Corps, but with color. So, we’re using color to spread the word of what it can really, really do. So, it’s mostly a focus on being of service and to take what I’ve learned. And I always say that, you know, I know this one thing and I know it kind of deep, you know, but that I want to use it in a way that, that really helps humanity.

Abby: Which turns right back to being a doctor, because that’s what they’re supposed to do as well. You haven’t strayed too far from the original, original mission. Your mom and dad should be very proud.

Brenda: Yes, indeed.

Abby: Laura, thank you so much. Well, first of all, for bringing us optical optimism, which I’ll be using that. It’s an incredible concept. And here’s to never leaving Oz.

Laura: Oh, that’s so kind. I adored being with both of you. And thank you for your time and your energy. This has been so wonderful. Thank you so much.

Brenda: It’s been a delight having you.

Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience wherever you listen to podcasts, and make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. See you next time!

Brenda: Bye everyone!

[Music]

Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

Dori Tunstall

Decolonizing Design

PRL x Naiomi Glasses

[Music]

Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience, a podcast produced by Lorem Ipsum, an experience design company headquartered in New York City. Our podcast explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. If you’re new, a hearty welcome. And to our regular listeners, thank you for tuning in and supporting our conversation. My name, if you don’t know it, is Abigail Honor.

Brenda: Hello, this is Brenda Cowan.

Abby: Today we’re speaking with Dori Tunstall, distinguish design anthropologist, celebrated author, visionary organizational design leader—can’t wait to hear about that—consultant, and coach. She is a pathbreaker of progressive approaches that challenge conventional design paradigms that exclude and harm indigenous cultures.

With a global career encompassing an Associate Professor of Design Anthropology at the University of Illinois at Chicago and Swinburne University in Australia, respectively, Dori made history as the first Black and Black female Dean of basically anywhere in the world at OCAD University in Toronto, Canada. Go Canada!

Her accomplishments have been recognized with numerous prestigious awards, which I am not about to list because we’ll be here the entire show, but most recently, the 2022 Sir Misha Black Award for Distinguished Service to Design Education. Dori, a huge welcome.

Dori: I am so excited to be in conversation with you, Abigail and Brenda.

Brenda: Oh, Dori, we’re so happy that you’re here. So, before we focus in on your incredible work with design, advocacy, and leadership, tell us what attracted you to cultural justice work in the first place?

Dori: I was born into it. I grew up in Indianapolis, Indiana. I am multi-generational African American, so, you know, like 7 to 10 generations that we can trace our family heritage in the United States and thus being culturally African American, which is a kind of hybrid mix of African, European and indigenous cultures, there’s an innate sense of attunement to cultural justice in which cultures get to be expressed, which cultures are repressed, which cultures you’re forced to assimilate to in order to survive. And it also brings, again, these opportunities for wonderful, you know, global celebration of culture and just my innate desire to understand how people think, how people move in the world has, you know, just deepened my, both my scholarship and my practice, right, around trying to understand culture and what it is and what it can mean to people.

Abby: Were your mom and dad involved in that sort of work? Tell me a little bit more about the influences that drew you into this sort of line of work.

Dori: I mean, I was born, I mean, you know, in 1972, in the 70s, so this is when you had the first introduction of like, Black History Month. So, my family was definitely involved with that.

There were always, you know, like there was always art around us. You know, I had cousins and uncles and stuff who were artists, so that was always encouraged. I talk about like how I became a designer is like, I have this book and volume number 11 is Make and Do. So, at the age of 10, I went through every single exercise in that book, which is like, you know, how to make stamps out of potatoes and build houses out of cardboard, so creative expression and an understanding of black culture was something that my family deeply, deeply advocated for and wanted to make sure that we were closely connected to.

Brenda: So, thinking about that and thinking about this incredible, you know, resume that you have today, I’m curious, was your journey, was it, like, fluid or were there a lot of unexpected turns and changes along the way that were unanticipated?

Dori: Yes. I always say that I’m like the queen of the zag. And I’ll give just like, really quick examples, so there’s a story that was told: at the age of 6, I said I was going to go to Harvard, and it was a thing that first my family’s response was like, you go, girl. Right? Like so there was something there that they actually felt that they could encourage me to do that.

So, I applied to Harvard University, but I encountered Bryn Mawr College, which is an all-women’s college, and it’s one of the Seven Sisters. And for me, the claim to fame is like, that’s where Katharine Hepburn graduated. So, I got into Harvard, but I zagged in the sense of going to Bryn Mawr College.

That was like one of my first zags, and I’ve never worked harder in my life intellectually than I did as an undergraduate at Bryn Mawr College, right, and making decisions to go from biochemistry to anthropology, like, I wouldn’t have done that. I wouldn’t have the environment to feel I could choose that pathway if I had gone to Harvard because there’s always a preconceived notion of like the pathway you’re choosing if you’ve chosen to go to Harvard, right?

Abby: So, is that what happened when you left university then? You graduated with your fancy science degree and then you zigged.

Dori: No, I didn’t get it. So, the other zag is that my junior year, I was supposed to decide whether I was going to be a biochemistry double major or go into anthropology. I took anthropology classes because physical anthropology is the first course that you take. And so, I was like, oh, I’m interested in anatomy and etc., etc. and I took a medical anthropology class because I was like, I’m a global person, and so I really want to understand how medicine works across the world. And I fell in love with the subject matter.

And so, I just kept taking more anthropology classes, and I decided that anthropology got me closer to why I wanted to do neurosurgery, which is I wanted to understand how people think. And in anthropology, you learn how people think, but you learn how people think in the way that they think. And I get to understand how people think in the way that they want you to understand how they think. Right? And so that was the other big zag, was then.

So, I ended up with a degree in anthropology. My family freaked out because they thought they were going to have to, like, carry me financially for the rest of their lives. They were like, what do you do with that? And then I went to Stanford and got my Ph.D. there. But then the other zag, right, is that I went into high tech consulting at Sapient/E-Lab, and that was on a totally different trajectory. But then when they saw my salary, they were fine.

Brenda: I’m a parent of a young person who just got an undergrad in fine arts, you know, and I’m just like, baby, you just got to do what you got to do. You got to follow your heart. And she’s now going into art therapy.

Dori: I mean, you know, the, you know, my family is very much like working class, right? And so, like those questions of like, the sacrifices, let’s say, that are made to set you on a pathway where you’re like, okay, she’s going to Harvard in ten years or whatever, right? I understand deeply the anxiety because the intent is, again, if you’re working class, you want your children to be upwardly mobile, right? And so, this idea of, okay, how many zeros is it, is also a marker for them of like, okay, we’ve done a good job. Right? We’ve set them up for independence. We’ve set them up for potentially intergenerational wealth. And we created you know like a possibility model for everyone else in the family.

Abby: Yeah, the family and the community. The community modeling that happens when somebody gets so far, like, I think it inspires other people and other people’s kids

So, moving from the early, very impressive years to your most recent accomplishment, so we’re going to talk about this extraordinary book titled Decolonizing Design: A Cultural Justice Guidebook, where you have a powerful take on the role and responsibility of designers and cultural leaders to really take action towards amending social and societal injustices through design. Tell us what decolonizing means to you and why this is your current passion.

Dori: Decolonization is about reestablishing indigenous sovereignty as the land, meaning, like, there’s practice we do, like a land acknowledgment, right? So, I’m on the land of Tongva, Chumash, Tataviam peoples here in, you know, Los Angeles. So there’s that recognition of and the rematriation of the land back to those communities

And then it’s dismantling all of these structures that have been put in place to maintain this hierarchy that has put Europeans and their descendants at the top, African Americans or African peoples at the bottom, and then everyone else trying to figure out how they fit in between. So, decolonization is that process, right, of reckoning, it’s acknowledging the harms that have been done and then making the true actions of amends to redress those harms.

Abby: Do you think we can ever right the wrongs of the past completely?

Dori: Yes. Luckily, being in, like, California, you begin to see that happen, right? Like you have 100,000 acres have been rematriated to the Shasta Indigenous Nations. And again, whatever people’s fears are about that, like, nothing happens. The Indigenous communities continue to remain generous, right, in their approach to reconciliation.

Brenda:  You know, in talking about decolonization efforts, I’m curious, Dori, if you could talk to us a little bit about how it is that in your experience, organizations, institutions have been falling short over the years, and I recognize this is probably a massive, I know it’s a massive question, but I’m curious if there are any specific missteps or lack of steps that you’ve encountered.

Dori: Well, in the book, I try to talk about it in two very personal ways. The first chapter is Putting Indigenous First, and it’s really about the story of my own humility that I had to cultivate in terms of working with Indigenous communities and Indigenous faculty and the sense of recognizing that, whatever struggle, civil rights struggle that I may have, right, as African American, there’s a different struggle that in some ways holds first precedence, right, over redressing for that. And it expresses itself in, really, ways, so again, like asking to be in partnership, I do a lot of work around cultural appropriation and misappropriation, and the heart of that, the grievances around that that, why didn’t you just ask to be in community with us, to be sharing with us? Right, like we would have done it in collaboration.

And again, amends are being done. Like Ralph Lauren and the Polo brand just started their third collection with Naiomi Glasses, whose, Diné designers have, they’ve done three collections to go, this is the last one. Equal credit. Right? Give back to the community, not just the individual. Again, her name is plastered all over, everywhere. I’m assuming paid very, very well and continuous. Right? Like it just wasn’t a one off. And again, like, if you talk 20, 30 years ago, Ralph Lauren was like cultural appropriator number one. 2020, had a reckoning, changed the way their business worked, to success, right, because I’m upset because it came out yesterday and it’s like it’s almost all sold out.

Brenda: You know, you’re reminding me, just, it’s like a personal side note, but the whole idea of humility, and especially when working with, with Indigenous folks and I was working on a project with the Smithsonian, the Museum of the American Indian, and I was learning about and working with Haudenosaunee and folks from the Iroquois Confederacy. And I kept slipping up, using the right language to talk about, you know, is it the Iroquois Confederacy? Is it the Haudenosaunee, and how do I get this just right in the exhibition work that I was doing? And I kept getting corrected by one of the Haudenosaunee women who was working with us. And I just kept saying thank you because she didn’t make me feel stupid. She didn’t make me feel ashamed. And at any rate, I just remember feeling gratitude. A really warm combination of humility and gratitude.

Dori: The two things that I always mess up in my relationships with Indigenous people, but other community, cultural communities as well, is, one: is being present. There’s a lot of trauma, right, that is very close in Indigenous communities, which is very triggering because African Americans have experienced like, again, same types of trauma, different timelines, like I say, like the, if you think of the residential school, you’re talking about people’s parents and grandparents, right, in terms of like, how close the harm is. Whereas even if we’re talking about like Jim Crow and a lot of those things, it’s something that I think of in terms of like my great grandparents. And so, to even have like that generation of difference means the trauma affects you in a different way, right? So, the thing I talk about is like having to be present in their joy and in their grief and in their anger because that’s, that demonstrates I care, right, it demonstrates that I understand them as peoples and I’m present for whatever they’re feeling.

The other thing and I still fail with this one and it’s, it’s hard, it’s not hardwired, it just takes a lot more practice, is that like, I am the queen of productivity, I am the queen of the Gantt chart. And it’s how I think, like when I think of an idea, I already have, like what the strategy needs to be and you know, what are the operations. So, it’s like, the moment the idea comes, I’m like, okay, these are the next steps, which is great. It means like, this is why I get to lead a lot of stuff, right? But it also means that if people are not operating under that same sense of time and task, which many of my Indigenous colleagues and more importantly, Indigenous processes of decision making does not fit within a Gantt chart, then I end up actually causing harm to a lot of my indigenous relationships, because I’m so trapped in this idea that there’s a time frame in which this needs to happen.

And again, I appreciate what you’re saying, because I would say it took me a moment to realize that the act of calling out is an act of love. It is saying, I want to be in good relations with you. So, I’m going to tell you what’s going on.

Brenda: You know, I have a question; we’ve been hearing about making amends, right, we’ve talked about that a little bit. And I’m really curious, you know, in your work, you talk about how it is that we need to make amends far beyond DEAI. Can you tell us what you mean by that?

Dori: So, the way in which DEAI is normally framed is around hiring. And in the book, I talk about the fact that, like, the way in which hiring is generally done is that they’re looking for a super token, which is, again, an individual, you know, who has an extraordinary resume, again, from structurally marginalized identities, whose talents are so desired by institutions that they’re willing to kind of put aside any aversions they have to those identities in order to access those talents. And, you know, I’ve consulted with enough academic institutions and they’re all like, who’s the super token? Right? Like, who’s the Indigenous Ph.D. from MIT that we can recruit to come to our, you know, I don’t know, backwater institution in order to make us feel like we’re decolonizing. Again, important and necessary. But it has to be done in a context that leads to success.

So, first of all, the person is in isolation, which, you’re structurally setting them up to be manipulated by the institution and actually not bring about change, right? So, you need to hire for critical mass, bring in five people a year so that they can begin to build a pocket of culture from which they can draw the strength to challenge every institutional thing that you have in terms of how it’s not working for the identities that they embody.

And that means then you’re talking about like, you know, everything from like, yes, the hiring process, but you’re also talking about, okay, what are the ways in which courses might be assigned, the workload might be assigned? What are the ways in which recruiting is done? What counts as work? Does all this community engagement count as work. So, you’re changing all of these sort of structures that exist within the institution so that they will feel free to contribute all of who they are to the institution and connect the institution to those communities that you’re wanting to embrace. Right?

Abby: Did you realize all this, like on your journey? Have you lived all of these situations?

Dori: Yeah.

Abby: Right, that’s what it feels like.

Dori: Well, and the notion of the super token came because people kept asking me, what does it feel like to be the first Black and Black female, and I said, well, it’s bittersweet because on the one hand, there is sweetness because you’ve broken through a particular type of barrier. Right? And people are inspired by that. Like there are young people who start crying just from meeting you because you’ve opened up possibilities for them. Right?

But it’s also bitter because you think of like, who are all the people that were rejected? By the system. So that it takes you in 2016 to be the first. So, my answer to that is like well it’s complicated because I’m a super token. Again, in terms of the meritocracy game, I’m exceeding expectations. That is a barrier, right? Because then people say, oh, we would hire more X, Y and Z if they were like Dori. Well, Dori’s not even like Dori. So, the responsibility of a person who’s a super token is actually to dismantle all of those structures that put them in that position of being a super token.

Brenda: That is a really tall order.

Dori: It is. I mean, this, you know, again, why my second book is The Super Tokens: The First, and the Only is as I went on tour for the last, you know, year and a half or so, people come up to me and were sharing their stories of being a super token. And first of all, they were thanking me for the term because they had a way to explain the tensions between what they were feeling in their career of, on the one hand, exceptional performance, but on the other hand, constantly failing disrespected. Right? And/or rejected by their institution. So, the idea in some ways of the second book is really to be able to embrace their stories and to draw from them what individuals and institutions need to learn, so that those experiences of those super tokens are not so painful.

And it’s a reminder for super tokens themselves of like what their role was supposed to be, because one of the things, the hard conversations that I’m having right now, let’s say, with the Black community, is that, you know, our trajectory in terms of how we’ve been structured is for us to want to join the institution. Right? We are super excited because Kamala Harris is about ready to join this super institution, right? Like President of the United States. And that’s what you’re taught. Your purpose is to infiltrate these institutions. But that is not enough, right? And that’s the part where it’s like, it is more than DEI, because it is not enough. You actually have to be engaged with dismantling empire, dismantling oppression.

And when you’re a super token, sometimes, again, your everyday struggle to exist in the institution in ways that you’re so focused on survival in the institution that you’re not focused on liberation. So, there’s also the reminder that if you are in an institution as a super token, you’re not there just to join. You’re there to create structures of liberation by dismantling and reassembling the institutions and in a way that is more just, more fair, more equitable.

Brenda: You know, we’ve talked, and the word liberation has come up a number of times. And I’m so taken with your message about humility and being informed when working with others, with being a partner and ally. And you talk about how we can experience liberation in not being afraid, right, to say no to something that could harm you. When we’re able to manage the vulnerability and the humility required to do this, we can foster connection and joy. I’ve heard you speak about this in other forums, and you term this liberatory joy. Tell us, how can we all exercise liberatory joy in our work?

Dori: There’s a workshop that I give, and I’ve given it twice, quite successfully, which is Designing a Pathway for Liberatory Joy. And in it, I ask people to first know thyself. So, I ask people to identify their positionality vis-à-vis structures of oppression. Then, decide on something they want to say no to, but feel they can’t. Once they’ve kind of sketched out like a pathway of like what, what would it mean to say yes to that thing? Imagine what like a positive outcome would be of saying yes to that thing you want to say no to. And then what are the systems that you have to, like, engage with in order to be able to get to that yes.

All it is, is just setting up a methodology to begin to say, like, no to the things that I want and need to say no to, so that I can say yes to the things that are going to bring me closer together to myself, closer to communities that I love and find nurturance with, closer to whatever higher purpose, right, that sparks my imagination and my commitment. And to say, you know, when I say liberation is saying no to that which might harm you, it becomes really clear, as we’re hyper aware of the things that might harm us. So, all of a sudden, and then people begin to think is like, can I say no to that? Can I say no to that job? Can I say no to that housing situation? Can I say no to that policeman? Right, all of a sudden you begin to accumulate all the things that are actually oppressing you, and then you figure it out: what’s your pathway to liberation?

And you can’t do it as an individual. You feel so overwhelmed if you’re trying to achieve liberation as an individual. So, it is only by trying to connect with others to others, right, that we, we create the conditions in which everyone can say yes to that which affirms them and nurtures them. And connection to me is joy, like, why we love music is because it connects us. You can have a bunch of people all moving in sync because the rhythm gives them a point of connection to one another, right?

Brenda: Well, I say yes to you, Dori, and I say yes to this moment that the three of us have.

Abby: Yes, I say yes too, this was incredible. Thank you, Dori, so much for sharing your zigzagging pathway with us today and sort of opening my mind and hopefully the listeners minds, liberating us all en masse.

Dori: Thank you so much again. It’s such a pleasure and you are such wonderful interlocutors, so let me know anytime you want to do it again.

Brenda: Oh my gosh, well this, this does beg for a sequel, I must say, because I feel we’ve only just scratched the surface. So—

Abby: So maybe, maybe after your next book tour.

Dori: Yes.

Abby: We’ll see you at the end of that. Thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, please subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience where you listen to podcasts. Make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.

Brenda: Thank you so much everyone!

[Music]

Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

Marshall Steam Museum

Milton Historical Society

Science After Hours | The Franklin Institute

An open letter to the American Alliance of Museums

Small Museum Association

Introducing SEGD Professional Practice Groups

[Music]

Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience. My name is Abigail Honor.

Brenda: And I’m Brenda Cowan.

Abby: This podcast is produced by Lorem Ipsum, here in New York City, and explores the creativity, innovation, and psychology driving design experiences and encounters. Hello to anybody listening for the first time and welcome back to our regular listeners.

Today our guest is Alli Schell, who, after wearing many hats in the world of museums early on in her career, now works as the Director of Public Programs at the Marshall Steam Museum in Yorklyn, Delaware, where she champions small museums, which is one of the subjects of today’s podcast. She has been around museums almost her entire life, thanks to her father who took her to cultural sites on her summers off. Alli, a big welcome to the show.

Brenda: Welcome, Alli.

Alli: Thank you so much. I am a big fan of your podcast and just appreciate all that you do for the museum community. So, thank you for having me.

Brenda: Well, we’re so excited to have you, and let’s just get kick started by having you tell us a little bit about your early exposure to museums and historic sites, and what is it about your upbringing that influenced the path that your professional life has taken?

Alli: So big thanks to my father, who is a now retired history teacher. He taught eighth grade history, which it’s its own special kind of challenge. He loved teaching middle school students. And I think one of my first museum memories is at four years old, going to Colonial Williamsburg with him.

But on his summers off, that’s what we would do. We would go and visit different cultural sites all on the East Coast, and I just was so influenced by him. So then decided when I turned 16, I got my driver’s license, the thing that I decided to do on my weekends was, you know, not drive to the mall or other places, was to go volunteer at my local museums. And this first museum that I volunteered at, I remember approaching sort of the supervisor there and trying to think of ways to draw more people into the museum. And this was at 17 years old, and the museum was located kind of in this town where there was a central hub, almost like a wagon wheel. And the central hub is where everybody kind of gathered.

They had farmer’s markets on the weekends and different things going on. And I remember on the weekends I would drive past and see all these people kind of gather in the middle, but then they wouldn’t trickle down into where our museum was just a block or two off of this central spot, and I approached her and I was like, we should go up and, you know, I’m already in costume, I’ll be happy to hand out pamphlets and brochures and talk people up. They even put a sign out. I was like brainstorming all these different things and very genuinely they were like, yeah, go and do that. That sounds like a great idea.

Brenda: You’re a natural.

Alli: Even then I was already thinking more about how to propel small museums forward.

Abby: Where do you think people like you get that drive to go the extra mile? And is it only in this area of your life or is it in other subjects at school? Like, do you think it’s just central to who you are? Or is it specifically about this subject matter?

Alli: I think it just goes back to, for me, being really drawn to museums and their missions and what they’re about and just trying to help them to survive. It’s almost like a small museum philosophy of just letting people know that these places exist, they’re here in the community, and you should come and check us out. And I think it also goes back to my father in terms of just like teaching style and being sort of engaging or sort of interpretation.

You know, he taught history so he could have just done the usual thing, we just kind of go through the book. But he would go the extra mile, and on these summers off, he would go and use his own money, it’s very common for teachers, and purchase extra things, and he would do these like weeklong, sort of interactive experiences based around Civil War history and then also the American Revolution. And he made so many kids become teachers because of that, because he had this sort of interactive style of teaching and that has just stuck with me, and that is kind of my approach because I do public programs and education.

So, I know, I know I’m giving my dad a big shout out, but he so deserves it because he just really influenced me, and that’s, sometimes what it takes is just like one person to kind of be sort of your vision and kind of sets you on your path.

Brenda: Well, I’ll tell you something: what I think is going to be revealed pretty quickly in this, is that you yourself have quite a vision. Let’s talk about your first job-job, which was a director position. Who starts out as a director? That’s incredible. A very small museum, but they took a chance on you, which is really admirable. What was that first role like for you? How did you make your mark?

Abby: I want the terrifying, I want the terrifying—

Brenda: Abby wants to know if you were terrified.

Abby: You were terrified!

Alli: I don’t think I was terrified. I think I was terrified of my first board meeting. I don’t think I was daunted by the actual act of taking on a small museum. I think I was just very excited, and also very humbled that they just appreciated sort of youthful or emerging professional ideas and energy. And I know you’re going to make me emotional just because I always just consider myself this kind of small fish in a really big pond and just kind of make my mark behind the scenes, and that’s kind of what I like to do.

Now, the interesting thing about landing this position was—I don’t think you could really do this anymore, but I was so desperate, I guess, to get a position out of graduate school that I looked up a list of museums in all the places that I was willing to move to, and just went down the list and emailed them and was sharing my resume and looking on their websites and this was the place that I ended up at, was one of the places. And they got back to me right away and they were like, actually, we’re looking for a director, you know, send over your resume, cover letter, and we’d love to consider you. And I remember thinking, there’s no way. I’m an emerging professional. There is no way they’re going to hire me. So, I actually, I ignored the email.

Abby: Oh, no, Alli!

Brenda: Oh no.

Alli: And like a couple days later, and they were like, hey, we still haven’t gotten your cover letter and resume. You know, we’d still love to consider you. And I was like, oh, okay, well, I’ll send it in. Immediately get back to me, set up an interview and the rest is history. Yeah, they, they chose me.

Abby: That’s awesome.

Brenda: Oh, wonderful.

Abby: And which museum was this Alli?

Alli: It’s called the Milton Historical Society. It was in an old church. So, it was this quirky little, small museum located right downtown in Milton, Delaware, which is maybe about 30 minutes north of a lot of the Delaware beaches.

Abby: I want to hear about the t-shirt story, because I find that absolutely fascinating, and sort of that overall latitude you had in your role.

Alli: So, the Milton Historical Society, not only was it sort of the local history of the town, but Milton was also part of the shipbuilding industry in the southern part of the state. And, I don’t know, I just have all these different parts of me, I also have a very creative side, and so it manifested itself in me wanting to make a t-shirt for the gift shop. And I also love a good pun. So, because the town also has a little, has that quirky side to it, I was like, well, let me see if I can get away with this. And so, the shirt said, “Oh Ship” on the front, and it had a little tagline about, you know, “Shipbuilding Happens” in, you know, Milton, Delaware. I can’t remember exactly what the back said. And I was like, oh, this is right on the line.

Abby: Did they sell?

Alli: Mhm.

Abby: I knew it.

Alli: Oh, my goodness. And even years later, people remember this shirt. They asked me about it. So yeah, I think I made my mark in, in some way, even if it was just this terrible pun t-shirt.

Abby: But I think one of the fun advantages of working in a small museum and running it, like you really do wear multiple hats, you really can work in, you know, the grassroots marketing or in the merchandizing and be aware of, like who is your visitor? How is it cyclical, how is it seasonal? And you can really affect change.

Brenda: But what were some of the challenges, Alli?

Alli: Oh boy.

Brenda: Some.

Alli: Well, I think always with small museums right. I think just coming in, being the only full-time staff, I had two part time staff workers. So, it was just like everything—I was on all the time. When you’re in a small museum, you can see directly the influence you have, whether it’s through an “Oh Ship” t-shirt or a new exhibit you’re doing, or just working with the community and talking to them when they come and visit the museum. So, you get really addicted to seeing the influence that you have in a positive way. And that means that you end up taking on more and more and more. And I think I just got to a point, after two years that I realized I was burnt out and that, you know, being a director was very interesting and a really great learning experience.

But I realized there were areas I liked and areas that I didn’t like. So, to transition out of that is an interesting thing because people are like, well, you hit the top, you know, where do you go from there? And a lot of people say, oh, you’re kind of downgrading. But for me, because I don’t have an ego about those kinds of things, it was just more important that I set up my career pathway and my story. And I realized that out of this, the things I really liked were programing and education. You know that you really don’t like the administrative side.

And also, some of the other challenges, such as like with HR. When you’re a small museum, a lot of times you don’t have an HR department, and when something actually happens—I won’t get into the details—when something actually happens to you, and pretty much the only HR department that you have potentially at a small museum is your board, that gets really tough. And so, there were a couple situations I had to navigate where I was like, I can’t really rely on my board just because of the nature of the thing. So, how do you do it?

And one of them, I had to actually involve a stakeholder in the community because I had to think really creatively. I was like, how do I, how do I bring someone else in with influence that can help with this situation? But I can’t rely on the organization to kind of help, help figure this out.

Brenda: You certainly were very nimble, though, in terms of how you, I mean, the idea of bringing in an outside stakeholder and figuring out how to do that in a way that was safe. I’m just really personally very inspired by your thinking and how you were able to pivot and sort of you know, address just how to address things like this where there’s no, like, answer.

Abby: And I think that’s good advice for anybody in a situation, right? When there’s one against many and you feel either you’re not getting heard or your point across or something’s unfair, bringing in, you know, a third party, a mediator, somebody who can offer a fresh perspective often helps to solve the issue in some way, shape or form. But it seems to me that wherever you go, whatever organization you join, you really are trying to elevate them and make them successful. And so, you’ve brought to the community a number of different things. Can you talk about some of your programs?

Alli: Well, yeah, partnerships I think are one of my favorite things. You’re centered somewhere in a community, and I don’t ever feel like I’m in competition with another organization. I feel like we’re both kind of fighting the same fight. And I guess one of the best examples of that was I was working at another small museum that had historic houses, and one historic house was kind of located a little further away from kind of the main campus of where things were. And I really wanted to highlight that building. It was very cool, was an 18th century tavern, and I always go to different museum programs and kind of get inspired.

So, I will give a shout out to The Franklin Institute’s Science After Hours. I had gone and the whole museum was open, and people could kind of explore around, and they had different themes each night that you went. And there were different stations, and it was really interactive and fun. And I was like, well, what if I superimpose that kind of idea on to this historic tavern? And one of the big features that I kind of picked up on and that people were always drawn to, was just exploring the house. Let them at their own pace, explore the house, and then each room has something interactive.

So, whether it’s someone from the community doing a presentation or they’re writing with a, you know, a quill pen, for example, or they’re making 18th century insults with different words, and I would just come up with some of these activities, it really activated the space and made it come alive. And this event would be like sold out, I think I did this for about two and a half years.

But then the other, other side to it was the volunteer side. And so, we ended up getting this core group of volunteers that loved to help out. And I would also give them some ownership, so I send them kind of, here’s your area that you’re going to help with and here’s some information on it, but you know, you’re your own person, like take it and go with it. And so, they loved that so much that I just had this core group that would come volunteer every month. And it was just, that was probably one of my favorite things I ever kind of created.

Abby: Okay, so recently you shot into everyone’s LinkedIn channel when you posted your open letter to the American Alliance of Museums and their treatment of small museums. So, a little background to your story for our listeners.

You attended the conference this year after about a ten-year hiatus, because back then you were told a small museum meant a staff of 30 or more, which certainly wasn’t you. So now you’re back. Hopeful, optimistic, proud to represent real small museums in a panel presentation on small museums. Perfect for you. And the rooms overcrowded, so they have to set up extra seats and like super, super well attended. And the topic is important to this massive group of people because I think it’s about 85% of people in our profession work at small museums.

And now, Ali, tell us what happened.

Alli: So, I had ten years ago attended AAM as an emerging professional, I knew I had landed that director position and then yes, they had, the person at the panel had mentioned their staff size of it had to at least have been like 20 or 30 individuals. I was like that, that is not a small museum. And so there I was just kind of like, I was a little defeated in some ways because AAM—and I don’t want this, I’m just going to preface this: I don’t want this to be a bashing of AAM at all. And so, you know, you will see that for my letter, I just, it’s a call for just being proactive in general. But, you know, you kind of look to them as the thought leaders and sort of the overall kind of support system for museums in the US.

And so just to have that experience was just like really disappointing, and then going back ten years later, getting on this panel, for me, it was like correcting an error in the past of now I actually get to do that session that I was really hoping for ten years ago, but then I was just noticing and even just talking with colleagues, so the letter is kind of a, also, representation of some other just conversations, and I was like, I’m happy to be the, kind of, I’ll have the target on my back—conversations I had had with other employees, and there’s just some things that really turned us off, and to see that things just really hadn’t changed in some ways, or maybe reverted back in some ways.

And so just really wanted to call AAM and others out as to, you know, hey, we got to fix this and fix some other things, or, you know, how can we all come together? We’re a creative field, so we’re all connected to different resources. So, if it isn’t AAM, who else can do it?

Brenda: It is important to note that AAM is really the big player, certainly in the United States, you know, and we can talk about ICOM, you know, of course, as well and on an international level, by mission. But AAM is not insignificant. How is it that AAM is a mismatch currently for small museums?

Alli: So first and foremost, just small museum representation. So, if you’ve never worked at a small museum, you don’t really understand the challenges. And also, the really great things that a small museum can bring. And so, you know, just noticing that just about all of leadership and probably for a long time, I haven’t gone back and really done a full deep dive of that, have been, you know, people that come from larger museum backgrounds or even sort of, you know, higher executive positions.

So that was just kind of disappointing that there isn’t sort of a spread within the leadership there, executive leadership. And then articles as well. I know that there was someone at one point that was kind of really championing, on their staff, quite a few years ago with small museums, so they had helped create the small museum accreditation pathway, because there are just some things, like accreditation that really weren’t accessible to small museums in certain grants. Even though they’ll say it’s for anybody, there are just things set up that already are limiting.

So, some grants, some larger grants looking for like, what staff member is going to do this and this and this? And I had, even me, because I was ambitious when I was a director and I was like, I’m going to apply for an NEH grant before they had created the small museum grant and just even filling it out, I was like, I don’t think I have a chance.

I want to do it; I want to go for it. But, you know, they were like, well, what staff members getting assigned to this role and this role, I’m like, it’s just me. And then, yeah, they would have, so this person that was sort of championing small museums also I think was kind of instrumental, it’s just my take, in getting a lot of these small museum articles, because they always have the articles that they post out, which is really great resources in general.

But sometimes, a lot of times I read through them and I’m like, okay, that’s a great case study, but it doesn’t really apply to my site and that’s always what I’m looking for as a small museum person is, how can I take this information and how can I like objectively apply that to my site? And so not to simplify things, but I know that we’re like, we just got to get things done, so help us make that happen.

Abby: And what were some of those solutions then? Because I know, you know, in the open letter you lay out some of the solutions to benefit the museum community that you offered up to AAM.

Alli: Yes. So, I didn’t want to write a letter that was just, you know, being angry and upset, and I just want to preface that I did get to meet with some representatives recently at AAM, so they have started the conversation. But basically, some things that I put up, of course, very simply, just like create space for small museums to be in leadership positions and I think also there are some parts of AAM that have like paywalls or higher admission rates to attend certain things. And like even the annual conference is just, can be like inaccessible just in terms of costs, even for like emerging professionals. And of course, there’s some ways you can always kind of get around that. If you kind of volunteer or get a scholarship, not to say that they don’t give pathways to affordability, but still, just as a base level, it’s pretty expensive. And I get it. It’s a larger conference. So, places like Small Museum Association have like a way more affordable conference for me that I just have gone to every year and I get what I need out of it. But, you know, thinking just maybe they can think more creatively about some ways that things are structured.

Even for posting jobs. They have a job board and there is a fee associated with that. And so, I do career coaching stuff as well for museum professionals and for me when I see something like that, it just means that only certain jobs are going to get posted because they’re not going to post, let’s say, an entry level position or an internship necessarily. I think they did make a change from this, internship’s being posted on there, but you know, you’re not going to spend 250 bucks to post a smaller, lower-level position versus, you know, they’re going to put that money into executive directors, for example

So just some equity in there in terms of like opening it up so that, you know, there isn’t really one space for museum people to find a job, period. There isn’t one resource out there. So that really needs to change. Even just advocacy in general for funding. I think, in terms of grants and like, I just am thinking of things that are kind of like just help move the needle for museums in general, is there was a time during the pandemic where grants actually were funding operational costs and staff members and things like that versus the project aspect.

And I thought, oh, this is really great, seeing a lot of these grant makers kind of shift that during the pandemic. And then they shifted right back. So, I’m like, AAM already does these advocacy days who can kind of help talk to these grant makers and be like, this is actually what we need, and that would solve so many problems. So, for museums, if we could just have some funding for the people that work at these organizations who then could do these projects.

Abby: So, let’s do that: shout out to the, to people in the grant business. Please, please, please, please make a grant that helps support small museum staff and their operations.

Alli: Museum staff in general for any museum, you know. I think, some of these things benefit museums of all sizes.

Brenda: I had a conversation a couple of years ago with, with a very notable person in the museum world, and we were talking about the idea of small museums. And this individual very fervently said that it’s a frustration of theirs, that funding would ever go to a small museum, and that it’s the big museums that can be the change makers.

And I disagreed, disagreed at the time, and continued to disagree with that notion, and instead feel that the real change makers are going to be these smaller, nimble, we’ll go back to ships, it’s the tiny ship, and not the cruise ship that’s able to more nimbly pivot and be responsive to the times and be responsive to individuals and individual causes even. Would you agree with that?

Alli: Absolutely. I mean an example I can give, coming back to ships, right, so even just during the pandemic, I had an idea like day one when everything got shut down to do sort of an online program. And my boss was like, yeah, go for it, do it. So, I was able to get that program up and running in like a day. So just being able to pivot on a dime like that when you have this, the smaller sloops versus the larger ships really makes a difference.

And, you know, being able to just see what you need to do for that community or what you need to do in general. I think being community resources is super important, so you’ve seen a lot more museums become like voter registration sites, just even community gathering spots for lots of just different events that may or may not relate to the museum, but it’s a place that’s, you know, where people just go to gather, supporting the people in the community, not just the visitors, but the people that are working and volunteering there and supporting them, as much as you’re supporting the visitor and recognizing that the people that are probably working and volunteering there might have some ideas too and commitment to the community that you’re serving.

Brenda: Well, being that AAM stopped it’s work with small professional groups as a part of its organizational structure, in response to that, the Society for Experiential Graphic Design, SEGD, they have just started a brand-new professional practices group, that I must say has received a rousing amount of interest from the community. They have created their own professional practice group specific to museums.

They anticipate creating several, I believe, of these professional practices groups, but they have started with museums. And Alli, I don’t know if you are on board, but please do take a peek and get the small museum representation in the mix there. And I am very willing to believe that they would be very receptive to your voice and the voices of small museums being a part of that practice group.

Alli: Yeah, excellent. I think that’s just what needs to happen. And knowing that there is space for these smaller museums to have a voice is really helpful. And that’s kind of also what, in my conversation with AAM, that they’re like, you know, hey, we already did some outreach to some of these different committees and things that we have here, and they’re aware and are open to, you know, people applying. So, I think it’s, part of it is knowing that there is a space.

Abby: Yeah, well, they have new leadership, and this is exactly what they need to hear. And obviously they’re working with you, which I think is a great result. They’re listening, which is so important. So, you know, forging forward and making change is so important. So, thank you Alli so much for joining us today and shining light on small museums and their importance to local communities that they serve, and for honestly and candidly discussing the challenges of working in a small museum that staff face as you strive to thrive.

Alli: We try. Sometimes it doesn’t feel like it but—

Abby: Keep going, Alli. Keep going. Take a deep breath.

Brenda: Absolutely. You have a lot of people who are grateful for you and certainly including Abby and myself.

Abby: 100%.

Alli: Oh my gosh, I’m so humbled. Thank you so much.

Abby: And thanks to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, subscribe to more episodes of Matters of Experience, more episodes of Abby and Brenda, and wherever you listen to podcasts, make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.

Brenda: Take good care of yourselves, everyone.

[Music]

Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.

Beth Redmond-Jones

Monterey Bay Aquarium

Welcoming Museum Visitors with Unapparent Disabilities

Into the Deep | Exhibition | Monterey Bay Aquarium

Heureka Goes Crazy

[Music]

Abby: Welcome to Matters of Experience. My name is Abigail Honor.

Brenda: Hello. Welcome. This is Brenda Cowan.

Abby: Our podcast is produced by Lorem Ipsum here in New York City and explores the creativity, innovation and psychology driving designed experiences and encounters. Hello to anybody listening for the first time, and welcome back to our regular listeners. So, today our guest is Beth Redmond-Jones, who is the VP of Exhibitions at Monterey Bay Aquarium and author of Welcoming Museum Visitors with Unapparent Disabilities.

Her career spans over 30 years, in which Beth has worked at some incredible institutions, including the San Diego Natural History Museum, Carnegie Museum of Natural History, and the Smithsonian’s National Zoo and Conservation Biology Institute. Her work focuses on engaging visitors in the natural world and inspiring them to take that step and advocate to protect our earth and ocean as they continue their journey beyond the walls of the experience.And also, Beth has been actively exploring how museums and institutions can more effectively serve people with unapparent disabilities, which I’m really interested to talk about today, Beth. So, listeners, this is going to be a real trip. Welcome, Beth, and thank you for joining the show.

Beth: Thank you for having me. I’m so excited to talk to the two of you.

Brenda: It’s such a pleasure to have you here. So, Beth, before we focus on your incredible work in design, visitor advocacy and leadership, let us know what attracted you to the industry in the first place. How does your story begin?

Beth: Well, I grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio, and if I wasn’t outside in the woods with my dog looking for snakes and frogs and building forts, I would request that my mom or my dad would take me to either the Cincinnati Zoo or the Natural History Museum. And the Natural History Museum, in particular, was really amazing in that they had—this was the old Natural History Museum, not the one in Union Terminal right now—but they had this amazing spelunking experience where you literally opened the cave door, walked in across these rocks with water flowing around it, a waterfall, and there were stalagmites and stalactites and I still don’t know which is which, but I would go through that again and again and again, and I would exit through this cave door that opened out, and my mom would be sitting there on the bench doing her knitting, and she’d look at me and she goes, “You’re going to go again.” And I’m like, “Yes, I am.” And it was just transformative because I’d never been spelunking, so that was the closest I’d ever gotten to it. But I was just so fascinated about the whole idea of transporting someone to someplace else and like, feeling this amazing connection with place.

Brenda: What was that magic moment when you were able to take your early experiences in caves and with the natural world and in the woods and chasing frogs and snakes, when were you able to then discover that you could continue that passion and that excitement in a cultural institution?

Beth: Working in a museum in my mind was that you had to have a degree in art history, which is what I ended up pursuing, but I also had a minor in biology and studio art, and then you had to work in an art museum. So, I did an internship at the Tucson Museum of Art right after college and worked on an exhibition there, well several, actually, which was really fun, but it wasn’t filling my soul. And so I, you know, went to Washington, D.C. to work at the Smithsonian because that’s what everyone does, realizing I couldn’t get a job at the Smithsonian because I didn’t have experience or credentials or anything else. And so I ended up going to grad school, and that’s where I met Kathy McLean. She is an amazing woman here in the West Coast, one of my mentors, and she really pushed forward the idea of content driving design and coming at it from a visitor experience side.

Abby: I love that. I love that. So, in terms of your work, then Beth, so the listeners can better understand what it was you were doing, you mentioned sort of more of the design or the approach strategically thinking about yourself as the visitor and what you want them to learn and understand. What were you doing? Were you curating? Were you designing for much of your early life?

Beth: My early life really started with project management and helping wrangle all the details of an exhibition project, and then looking at the content. So, what do visitors know about a subject? How do we meet them where they are and scaffold up from there? And then designing experiences based on what you want to communicate to visitors. So, really looking at what is the content and then what is the experience design that you want to create to formulate this three-dimensional space that visitors are going to walk through or wheel through or run through.

Abby: From a project management perspective then, what were some of the challenges when you approach it that way, from the visitor’s perspective?

Beth: I think the opportunity for me with, and one of the things I really learned through the project management was I was managing the evaluation and the front-end evaluation and seeing what visitors like, listening to what they’re saying, doing interviews, collating the data for the expert to then, you know, formulate the final report. And so really understanding where visitors were, that was a huge advantage for me.

Part of my brain is really, really good at details if I can be really focused. So, it was a lot of, you know, correlating like what are all the pieces that we need for this experience from the text and the translation and the objects and that kind of thing, and are they all represented in the design documents? So, it was more of a logistical place except the evaluation and being able to manage that really allowed me to understand visitors better and their different learning styles and what excited them, and what didn’t.

Brenda: Beth, one of the things that Abby and I are really curious about has to do with how it is that you think about inspiring visitors to take action. So, what are some of the ways that through your work, you are able to really activate the visitor.

Beth: Okay. Imagine an upside-down triangle. Okay. And you’re going to put two lines through it to make three equal parts, with the top part being the largest, because it’s upside down, the middle section, and then the tiny little point at the bottom. So that upper section is the experience that your visitor has at the museum. So, at the aquarium that’s 2 million visitors a year fall into that top section and they get to experience the aquarium in whatever capacity that they, they do and however they learn.

Then you draw an arrow from that top section to the middle section. That middle section I like to call connect. Somehow there is something in that experience that made them connect with the ocean. Maybe it was the otter that they saw on exhibit and then they’re standing out on the back deck, and they saw an otter playing around or, you know, in the kelp or something like that. Somehow there was some kind of connection that happened.

 Then if you take an arrow from that middle section to that bottom section, that’s the action. So, a smaller portion of that 2 million are going to connect with something in the aquarium. But even a smaller percentage of people are going to take action. And it’s building that empathy that happens between the experience and connecting with it. And until you have that empathy in that connection, you’re not apt to do something about it. And that’s really based in all the conservation psychology that’s out there.

I always use the example of recycling. When recycling started in the US, middle schoolers at that time were the ones who were coming home saying, “Mom, Dad, we’ve got to start recycling because it’s my future that you’re screwing up.” And it was these group of teens that could make a connection to their future, where the adults had, like their future was now. So, it was a way of then activating that family to then take action by recycling. Does that make sense?

Brenda: It makes a tremendous amount of sense. And I also appreciate how you think about this in in a framework of empathy and relevancy and how it is that humans ultimately, if we can understand that the tiniest thing that we do in the course of a day can actually make a difference.

Abby: So, Beth, your work really has a strong root, clearly, in visitor advocacy and reaching out through the experiential, hands-on design. I know you used multimedia, but you know, in terms of that middle tier of the triangle and really connecting with people, we’ve found that as soon as people can touch and interact rather than just stand and passively, maybe just read, they really start to emotionally resonate with the content. So, can you talk to us a bit about the way that you sort of really emotionally touched the visitors?

Beth: Well, I think there—that aligns with why I am drawn more to natural history and live animals, because there are things that have existed on this planet for millions of years and may still be here or may not.

One of the things that we talk about here at the aquarium is that the animals are ambassadors, and we create the design of our exhibits to really highlight and focus on the animals. Everything is seamless from what we call back of house, so the animal habitat, to the front of house. And our text is very minimal, and the experiences outside are very minimal, unless they completely add to what you’re seeing in front of you

So, I was just recently talking with one of my designers about like, if you were talking about a, a femur bone from some animal, you want that bone in front of you and you want that label right there, so there’s a direct connection between that label and that femur bone, and not having that femur bone across the gallery.

Brenda: So, we’ve been talking about the wonderful things that you do with the aquarium to engage visitors and to spur action and to develop relevancy, and to make for a very successful visit on visitors’ terms. What I’d love to do would be to fold this into your most recent accomplishment, which is an extraordinary book that adds great depth and breadth to our profession’s work with DEAI.

I enjoyed this book immensely, and it brings into focus the needs of museum visitors with unapparent disabilities. So, let’s enter into this part of our conversation, if you would, with a definition. Is there like a medical definition of unapparent disabilities? And what do they mean within the museum profession?

Beth: When I started working on this book, actually the title that I pitched was Hidden Disabilities. And I started talking to individuals with lived experience and a couple colleagues of mine who work in the accessibility field, and then I looked at the dictionary, imagine that, and found that, you know, the term hidden is being out of sight or not readily apparent. It’s being concealed, which means someone on purpose is trying to hide what they may or may not have.

So, then I looked at invisible and invisible implies not being seen. And we all want to be seen. So, I started thinking about, well, you know, ADA uses physical and then it was like, well, I could talk about mental health, but then it’s also neurodiversity and its dementia and grief and things that don’t have a clear definition within the DSM or within the ICD that the World Health Organization puts out.

And so, I started thinking about the word apparent, and then unapparent just came to me. A lot of people have asked me why I didn’t use the term nonapparent, and non comes across as such a negative term for me, more so than unapparent does. So, I ended up going with unapparent, and when I spoke with others with lived experience, that resonated with them.  So, it’s not readily seen or directly apparent, but it is still there. It’s not being hidden. It’s not invisible. Does that make sense?

Brenda: That makes a tremendous amount of sense, and I really appreciate the thoughtfulness that went into this. And I think that choosing the right language and you bringing that forth into the broader dialog within the profession is really important.

Abby: I also just wanted to add that I completely agree with Brenda, in terms of the thoughtfulness in the way that you consulted people with, let’s wonderfully adopt the unapparent disabilities that I think is perfect, and made sure that that community were comfortable with that term.

Beth: Well, I’m going to interrupt you for one second because I’m part of that community. I have depression that I’ve lived with ever since I was a teen, and my family didn’t want to talk about it, because if you don’t talk about it, it’s not there. But I struggled with it, and both of my kids have it, and my husband, my ex-husband is on the spectrum.

Abby: It’s very personal for you.

Beth: It’s very, it’s very personal. But one of the things that I will do at conferences is I will ask people to raise their hands and keep them up if they know of anyone that has anxiety, depression, ADHD, dementia, bipolar. Within 5 to 6 terms every hand in the room is up.

Abby: Oh, I’m sure.

Beth: And one of the things I say is that this is our present and this is our future. Everyone is touched by this, yet no one will talk about it. And the stigma piece makes me crazy and that’s part of the reason I wrote this book, because we need to start talking about it, and museums are such safe places to be able, for those with these challenges, to just be, get out of their own heads, find a moment of quiet or a moment of connection. Moment of mindfulness.

Abby: I love that you brought up museums as a place for that, a place for our society to be able to come and talk freely and openly about things like mental health conditions or any concerns. To be honest, I think that as museum institutions evolve and become places for our communities, that this is one of the wonderful roles I think they can play.

Beth: Most definitely. I think the United States, though, is way behind. The National Health Service in the UK is so much further ahead. And how social prescribing is becoming very commonplace within the NHS, as well as in Canada. And I think the United States needs to get with it and start really thinking about this.

Abby: I just have a quick design question about that. So, can you tell me or explain to me a few sort of examples about things that change when you’re designing for this group? Just some really good examples, so designers who are listening can, sort of have some food for thought when they’re designing their next project.

Beth: So unapparent disabilities impacts everybody in some way or another, either personally or someone that they may be with. So, I don’t think there is a thing about creating different types of labels or anything like that, but maybe really thinking intentionally about the space that you use and how to use it.

Do you have very high active zones for someone who may be a sensory seeker in the autism spectrum? But also, do you have quiet areas where someone who is a sensory avoider might be able to decompress, or someone who gets very anxious in crowds, that they can separate themselves away and have a moment to take a few deep breaths, regroup, and then move forward.

My oldest daughter used to have a service dog. She has autism and other mental health challenges, and she was a huge inspiration for this book, and just knowing some of the exhibits I go into, they’re not designed to accommodate an individual with a service dog. So how do you do that? Most museums don’t even allow service dogs, but they have to by ADA. So, I think there’s a lot of things you can intentionally think about in just creating a welcoming space for all. And that quiet space that someone who has anxiety may want to sit and decompress, it may be a perfect space for a nursing mother just to sit down and nurse her baby for a few minutes so then they can keep going and enjoy the experience. So, it really gets then to universal design. And what is good for one is really, can be beneficial for all.

Brenda: This sounds so achievable. And yet, as you pointed out, the US is struggling in some ways to really work with this audience and make necessary change that would make things accessible for all. And I’m curious, what do you think museums and cultural institutions have been missing? How is it that they’ve been falling short? What is it? Is it funding? Is it an unawareness? Is it an unwillingness? What is it that is not happening in our institutions that you think we can really impact?

Beth: I think it’s a lot of, actually, I think it’s at a societal level. It gets into the stigma piece of us not recognizing that individuals with unapparent disabilities are around us everywhere, and not being willing to take a stand to support this audience. I’m very fortunate my staff have faith in me and trust me, and those with unapparent disabilities will come to me, yet maybe not necessarily go to HR if they’re having a rough day or need a different type of headphones so they can function in a cubicle environment or something like that. I think it’s at all levels of, not just visitors that are coming to the museums, but the staff that are working there, and how do we really make everyone feel welcome and comfortable in whatever capacity that they’re engaging.

As to why, you know, other than stigma, I think a lot of places are afraid and they may lose funding, maybe, or be seen differently. I mean, I’ve actually had a couple people reach out to me since I wrote this book saying, well, you may not be hired in a museum ever again for being so vocal.

Brenda: Seriously?

Beth: Seriously.

Brenda: Oh my Gosh.

Beth: And, I was like, wow, okay, there is stigma, full and present, and these are people who have been in the field for years.

And, you know, one of the things that I was asked, I had several readers for different sections of this book, and one of them came back to me and said, in your very first chapter you state that you have depression. I’m like, yep. And like, aren’t you afraid of like putting that out there? I’m like, if me, as the editor of this and, you know, coauthor of this book cannot state that, why am I even doing this book?

So, I think there’s a huge societal piece to this that really needs to be addressed. And hopefully, as other museums and other individuals are willing to start speaking out, that we can maybe start making change.

Abby: And let me ask you a quick question then, a bit based on where you currently work, it’s obviously a very welcoming place and a place that gives you the support you need, for the book and for where you’ve worked and what is it, do you think about the aquarium and the staff because, you know, you mentioned the docents, but the environment you work in that you think makes it special and so accepting? And what are some of the nice moments in the aquarium where you feel that there’s fantastic, inclusive design and you’re proud of your achievements?

Beth: Okay. Well, first of all, accessibility is a journey. There’s not a start and an ending. It is a continuous journey. There’s one thing I always have to remind myself and the people that I’m working with, I think we could be better. You know, this is an amazing place, but the quiet spaces are very far and few. It’s a concrete building with a slate tile floor. We have to really be intentional in the way that we design future spaces. I’ve only been here for five years, and I only have one exhibition up currently, and we’re working on a second one right now where we’re really putting accessibility at the forefront of our design. So, it’s just how can we create spaces and do that?

And we’re right now on a journey. We have just started developing an accessibility roadmap here. We worked with all of our staff in putting together a shared Google Sheet, for lack of a better term, where people could put in opportunities, things that are working, not working for both staff, as well as for our volunteers, as well as our visitors. And we are slowly working through how do we parse out and make changes over the years to come, and where are the opportunities and the precedents that we can set.

In regards to designing the Into the Deep exhibition, which is my first exhibition here, when that project started, they designed a entry gallery that was filled with monitors and bioluminescent, deep sea animals. So, it was very sparkly and blinky and, not like strobe lights, but, you know, lights going on and off of the bioluminescence of these gelatinous animals in the deep sea. And I had us redesign the gallery so we could move that off the main path, because someone with sensory processing disorder or challenges could get to the beginning of that and turn around and walk away and never see all the amazing animals that are actually in the deep sea because of this one experience that was a multimedia experience.

Abby: This is incredible, right, Brenda? Like this is phenomenal.

Brenda: It’s absolutely perfect.

Beth, I wanted to ask you about when you were putting together the book. You have an impressive lineup of authors who contributed to it and brought many different perspectives, many different facets to the stone. How did you come to identify and select the authors that you did? Like, did the content specifically drive the selection of authors, or were there particular folks out there doing work that you knew was really essential and important to bring to the fore? How did you come to direct the chapters?

Beth: Well, I didn’t want this to be all about autism, but I felt that I needed to bring up autism, because that’s something that the museum field has really made strides in. But I also wanted to look for opportunities for where programs have pushed beyond just the sensory mornings or evenings, and how they’ve really integrated those of that community and how to move that forward. I really wanted to look at mental health, and that was a little bit more challenging. I knew of the mental health exhibition that Heureka had put together, so I reached out to them, and they were really willing to write about it.

But for me, I really get tired of us all patting ourselves on the back for all the great work that we’re doing, and that’s part of the reason I wanted to have lived experience voices in it. Because first and foremost, if we’re doing these programs, we need to be engaging those audiences and asking them how we can better serve them and not just make assumptions for how we can serve them and support them. So that was not difficult to find people who I knew with lived experience. So, it was really a pleasure that they were really excited to participate in. And be a part of that as well.

Brenda: Well, the range and the depth, the breadth of authors in there, it brings so much dimensionality to this subject, and one of the things that really is important to me is the range in particular, like your decision to bring in mental health. I was very surprised, honestly, at how encompassing you have been with this particular book, and I think that it is so important that you have brought this to the profession.

Beth: Well thank you.

Abby:  I think we should just tell the listeners to go out there and buy the book. Damn it, get that book! It’s a must read, but I want to move now, as we’re running out of time, and I’ve got a really critical question. Technology, Beth. Blessing or curse? Blessing or curse? What do you think?

Beth: I think it depends on the situation. I think if you can tell the story with a real object or the real thing, then you should. I think it’s really determining what is the problem you’re trying to solve with technology that you can’t do without it.

I don’t know, I get very frustrated by technology sometimes because I feel like it’s just like, oh, well, let’s just throw it on a on a computer screen. I don’t know, I’m about authenticity and the real things. I mean, if you’ve ever been to the Holocaust Museum and you stand in front of an SS uniform or inside that train car, technology is never going to replace that. And whether it’s, you know, a totally faux spelunking experience, for me, that was the real thing when I was seven years old. But it was that immersive element that I wouldn’t have those same feelings or that, I don’t think that passion for nature without being in it and loving having my parents let me run around in the woods for hours with my dog and play and collect snakes.

Abby: So, Beth, this has been incredible. Thank you so much for sharing, like, sharing your fearlessness in walking the walk and talking the talk and being a real leader.

Berenda: Here, here.

Abby: Like, I wish there were more people like you who are willing to put their head up above the parapet and tell it like it is, and not worry about losing their job and what negative things going to happen to them. So, thank you for being you and having that courage.

Beth: My pleasure. I think all the formal learning organizations can help in making people feel more welcomed, regardless of abilities and disabilities, and that is to train the frontline staff and those that engage. That is where, in the book I bring up a couple examples of the way I was treated with my oldest daughter, and it was really unpleasant and, you know, oh, people with autism kill people and, you know, do you have a problem, do you need to leave?

I mean, there was some really, really some awful things, said, and I just checked it off as them not knowing and not knowing better. So, I think if we do anything else, is training our frontline staff to come with empathy and open hearts and compassion to whoever it may be and just be, how can I help? Anything that you need that we can help make your visit better today.

And I think if we can all take that one step, we’ll be much better as a society, and hopefully will open the door for the rest of the museum to then start thinking about how we can do that for our own staff and others as well.

Brenda: Wise words.

Abby: Beth, again, thank you so much and thank you to everyone who tuned in today. If you like what you heard, subscribe for more episodes of Matters of Experience wherever you listen to podcasts, and make sure to leave a rating and a review and share with a friend. We’ll see you next time.

Brenda: Take good care everyone. Thank you, Beth.

Beth: Bye. Thank you.

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Producer: Matters of Experience is produced by Lorem Ipsum Corp and recorded at Hangar Studios. Tune in next time for more fun discussions about experience design.